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Kropotkin Botkin
This was a very simple IRC chatbot for education and Kropotkin quotes. Audience was invited to type in the following keywords to see what the bot has to say: Poor, Poorer, Poorest, Women, Mothers, Neighbours, Collective, Community, Justice, Safety, Cooperation, Co-operation, Mutual, Mutual aid, Human nature, Struggle, Competition, Support, Solidarity, Equity, Institutions, Union, Associations, Association, Society, Common bond.
Please note all words were case sensitive.
Code of conduct.
Please note all words were case sensitive.
Code of conduct.
Archive
On 14 July 2020 a curated conversation was
held in this chatroom about the role mutual
aid plays in times of uncertainty and how
we can harness mutual aid practices as we
move forward into tomorrow. The conversation
was chaired by Curator and Art-theorist, Ruth Catlow
with participation from Artist, Larisa Blazic,
Plan C Founder, Camille Barbagallo,
Reader in Media and Politics at the University
of Westminster, Anastasia Kavada
and Curator, Researcher and RCA Visiting
Lecturer, Cecilia Wee.
Scroll down to experience the event via a
series of videos or read the full transcript
of the discussion below. You can also log
into this chatroom at any time to have a
conversation of your own.
| 18:30-18:50 | 18:50-19:11 | |
| 19:11-19:29 | 19:29-19:45 | 19:45-20:00 |
Transcript of the conversation
***** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Jul 14 06:09:52 2020
Jul 14 06:09:52 * Now talking on #solidaritynotcharity
Jul 14 11:39:57 * sprprtr has changed the topic to: Welcome to
"Mutual Aid in the time of Uncertainty"
hosted as part of Common Bond Society
by Larisa Blazic and commissioned by
UP Projects. Tonight's agenda: 1.Now:
Mutual aid in the age of uncertainty
2.Next: Mutual aid beyond moments of crisis
Jul 14 18:31:21 Ruth Hello everybody
Jul 14 18:31:27 ccl Hello :)
Jul 14 18:31:33 Chelsea hello
Jul 14 18:31:41 Cecilia Oh hi there!
Jul 14 18:31:44 lararara Hello all
Jul 14 18:31:47 Anastasia hello all!
Jul 14 18:31:48 Ruth Lovely to see so many people here!
Jul 14 18:31:53 * jesfernie (520313e9@webchat.ircnet.net) has joined
Jul 14 18:31:56 * Truce_ (d5cdcbee@webchat.ircnet.net) has joined
Jul 14 18:32:02 * rosie (2eeda227@webchat.ircnet.net) has joined
Jul 14 18:32:06 * ep (522d9898@webchat.ircnet.net) has joined
Jul 14 18:32:17 * debhack28 (5924471b@webchat.ircnet.net) has joined
Jul 14 18:32:35 * UP_Projects_ has quit (Ping timeout)
Jul 14 18:32:38 * acpstudio (5adc0924@webchat.ircnet.net) has joined
Jul 14 18:32:44 Ruth We will be getting started soon
Jul 14 18:32:52 * cristina (53a3e85f@webchat.ircnet.net) has joined
Jul 14 18:33:05 Ruth Just waiting for a critical mass of people before we start
Jul 14 18:33:07 * Lauren (56001c72@webchat.ircnet.net) has joined
Jul 14 18:33:12 * nela (53d851f0@webchat.ircnet.net) has joined
Jul 14 18:33:15 Chelsea 3
Jul 14 18:33:45 irini Hello all:)
Jul 14 18:33:54 lararara Hi irini! Hi all!
Jul 14 18:33:56 Ruth Hi Irini:)
Jul 14 18:34:16 Cecilia Hi Irini!
Jul 14 18:34:17 irini Hi Ruth! Lara!
Jul 14 18:34:25 irini Hi Cecilia!
Jul 14 18:34:35 debhack28 3
Jul 14 18:35:13 * iannes (92c68398@webchat.ircnet.net) has joined
Jul 14 18:35:28 * ccl has quit (Ping timeout)
Jul 14 18:35:46 * Alex_ has quit (Ping timeout)
Jul 14 18:35:58 * techboy94 (522e7851@webchat.ircnet.net) has left
Jul 14 18:36:13 * Camille (569f01e1@webchat.ircnet.net) has joined
Jul 14 18:36:28 Ruth Hello Camille!
Jul 14 18:36:38 Ruth I think we are all here now
Jul 14 18:36:42 lararara Hi Camille
Jul 14 18:36:48 Camille hi i am sorry
Jul 14 18:36:54 lararara Hi Cecilia
Jul 14 18:36:55 Camille my internet just went awol
Jul 14 18:36:59 Camille but here now
Jul 14 18:37:02 lararara Hi Anastasia
Jul 14 18:37:04 Ruth Shall we get started?
Jul 14 18:37:06 lararara Hi Ruth :-)
Jul 14 18:37:07 * tech94 (522e7851@webchat.ircnet.net) has joined
Jul 14 18:37:10 lararara yup
Jul 14 18:37:11 Chelsea yes
Jul 14 18:37:18 Camille yes
Jul 14 18:37:22 Ruth Hello, my name is Ruth Catlow and I am your chair and
host this evening! I am a curator, art-theorist and
Co-Founder and Co-Artistic Director of Furtherfield.
Thank you all for joining today.
Jul 14 18:37:37 Ruth I would like to welcome you all to this event
"Mutual Aid in the time of Uncertainty" hosted as
part of Common Bond Society by Larisa Blazic. This
digital artwork has been commissioned by UP Projects
in response to the Covid-19 pandemic as part of their
ongoing This is Public Space digital commissioning strand.
Jul 14 18:37:46 Chelsea thanks for having us
Jul 14 18:37:53 Ruth This is Public Space considers the online realm as a
site for public art and creates space to investigate
how we navigate between the online and physical worlds,
exploring the impact of digital media on our relationships
with people and places.
Jul 14 18:38:10 Ruth Today's event is divided into two parts Now and Next
and looks to examine the role mutual aid has played
in the context of the current pandemic as well as find
time to consider how we can harness mutual aid tactics
to aid a more progressive and cooperative future.
Jul 14 18:38:32 Ruth Are there ways of sustaining, supporting and encouraging
acts of mutual aid long term? Tonight, I hope we can
go some way in considering these questions and I am
delighted to be joined by some great minds to do so.
Here is the line up!
Jul 14 18:38:43 * M___ (56b9a1ea@webchat.ircnet.net) has joined
Jul 14 18:38:51 Ruth Larisa Blazic artist and creator of Common Bond Society
and the reason we are here tonight.
Jul 14 18:39:01 Ruth Camille Barbagallo, Plan C Founder and organiser with
the Women's Strike Assembly
Jul 14 18:39:10 Ruth Anastasia Kavada, Reader in Media and Politics at the
University of Westminster
Jul 14 18:39:19 Ruth Cecilia Wee, Curator, Researcher and RCA Visiting Lecturer
Jul 14 18:39:30 Ruth This format may be new to many of you, but IRC chats
are an old school phenomenon that invite informal
conversation, discussion and debate.
Jul 14 18:39:42 * m---b (54515f2e@webchat.ircnet.net) has joined
Jul 14 18:39:45 Ruth We encourage you to get involved, participate and share
your opinions, viewpoints and questions at any point
you wish.
Jul 14 18:39:57 Ruth We will start this evening with a short contextual
introduction by Larisa Blazic in order to situate this
conversation within her work and the origins of mutual
aid before beginning our dialogue.
Jul 14 18:39:59 * saramairi (5afc5f8f@webchat.ircnet.net) has joined
Jul 14 18:40:10 Ruth Over to you Larisa…
Jul 14 18:40:26 lararara Hi all!
Jul 14 18:40:27 ahadzi evening
Jul 14 18:40:33 M___ hi
Jul 14 18:40:33 Ruth hey adnan!
Jul 14 18:40:35 Anastasia hi Larisa!
Jul 14 18:40:39 m---b hello!
Jul 14 18:40:43 cristina hello :)
Jul 14 18:40:53 Ruth Hello all
Jul 14 18:41:04 Lauren Hello Lara, Ruth and amazing panel!
Jul 14 18:41:04 rosie hi ro Ruth from Rose L
Jul 14 18:41:13 * ep has quit ("Page closed")
Jul 14 18:41:35 sprprtr from another computer
Jul 14 18:41:37 * m---b_ (54515f2e@webchat.ircnet.net) has joined
Jul 14 18:41:37 Ruth I think Lara's internet is down : (
Jul 14 18:41:38 * m---b has quit ("Page closed")
Jul 14 18:41:39 sprprtr cnotinued
Jul 14 18:41:51 sprprtr At the time I wondered how many people knew about
the history of such organising and whether they were
aware of its political background. Soon enough there
were groups such as Sisters Uncut and others who
flagged up the need to understand mutual aid as
"solidarity not charity"…something I am keen to
highlight and unpick in our conversation tonight.
Jul 14 18:42:15 sprprtr I was also wondering how this wave of amazing human
action for the benefit of others can and should be
supported through institutions of mutual aid.
What are these institutions? How can we set them up?
What knowledge and experience exists in the field?
And is there a way to sustain, support, encourage
(and dare I say reward!?) this kind of behaviour
long term?
Jul 14 18:42:34 * niccolo (45d79dec@webchat.ircnet.net) has joined
Jul 14 18:42:51 sprprtr The father of mutual aid, Peter Kropotkin helps us
analyse how forms of mutual aid occur in nature as
well as in human society over the ages. His essay
Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution (1902) offers
compelling evidence for careful scrutiny of present-day
organising (facilitated by digital technologies) and
allows room for imagining pathways for long-term
encouragement and change.
Jul 14 18:42:53 * Sila_ has quit ("Page closed")
Jul 14 18:42:54 * m---b_ is now known as m---b
Jul 14 18:43:07 sprprtr Charity, he says, "bears a character of inspiration
from above, and, accordingly, implies a certain
superiority of the giver upon the receiver." With
this he opens up an analysis of the power dynamic
in charitable exchanges.
Jul 14 18:43:32 sprprtr Whilst on the other hand, he proposes that "…it is
not love and not even sympathy upon which Society is
based in mankind. It is the conscience—be it only at
the stage of an instinct—of human solidarity. It is
the unconscious recognition of the force that is
borrowed by each man from the practice of mutual aid;
of the close dependency of every one's happiness upon
the happiness of all; and of the sense of j
Jul 14 18:43:32 sprprtr ustice, or equity, which brings the individual to
consider the rights of every other individual as equal
to his [her/their] own."
Jul 14 18:44:10 sprprtr Mutual aid, I believe, is perhaps the best way to
externalise our commitment to a life of dignity and
confront the "theatre of cruelty" that is contemporary
life. Common Bond Society is a commission that is set up
to contribute to this conversation.
Jul 14 18:44:12 * Luke73 (56bf3ae8@webchat.ircnet.net) has joined
Jul 14 18:44:26 sprprtr Taking the form of 'old school' IRC chat rooms, i.e.
channels, it reuses communication tools of the Internet
before web 2.0 to reboot citizens' information agora.
More broadly however, the work aims to prompt discussion
about the platforms that have been in use to organisation
mutual aid, through which issues of privacy, safety
and power can find a space for reflection.
Jul 14 18:44:28 * lararara has quit (Ping timeout)
Jul 14 18:44:49 Ruth I think that this work sprung first from your observation
of new mutual aid practices with the pandemic right?
Jul 14 18:45:22 sprprtr oops!
Jul 14 18:45:26 * tech94 has quit (Ping timeout)
Jul 14 18:45:31 Truce_ Nah, the pandemic on highlighted it
Jul 14 18:45:46 sprprtr all browsers quit!
Jul 14 18:45:50 sprprtr here we go
Jul 14 18:45:52 sprprtr The delayed beginning of the COVID-19 lock-down in
the UK brought about an amazing wave of community
organising, a sort of self-assembly for the protection
of self and others, a beautiful act of solidarity
where neighbours reached out to each other for help
and support. Mutual aid groups grew like mushrooms,
posters were plastered, chat groups and websites were
made, phones distributed, transportation found,
fundraisers
Jul 14 18:45:52 sprprtr organised, food prepared, medicines picked up and
delivered.
Jul 14 18:46:04 cristina (it's a browser strike)
Jul 14 18:46:05 niccolo It has occured to me during these times to reflect
about how helping has always been associated with
a condition of inferiority, subordination,
non-centrality - a very dominant, masculine and
white vision which is being challenged constantly
(and finally!)
Jul 14 18:46:08 Ruth Ok so this was the start
Jul 14 18:47:23 Ruth I think niccolo that you raise an issue that gets to
the heart of the matter for all our panellists
Jul 14 18:47:39 * lararara (4f4e19f7@webchat.ircnet.net) has joined
Jul 14 18:47:50 * acp_studio (5adc0924@webchat.ircnet.net) has joined
Jul 14 18:48:01 Ruth Please Camille, Cecillia, and Anastasia feel free to respond
Jul 14 18:48:10 Anastasia I think that you are right Niccolo
Jul 14 18:48:11 * breakwater (d920235b@webchat.ircnet.net) has joined
Jul 14 18:48:34 Anastasia mutual aid is associated with care - caring for
each other in a horizontal way and without hierarchies
Jul 14 18:48:37 Camille i wonder if the desire to help is "masc" though -
in that i think helping has been coded as
feminine / angel of the house / victorian era
Jul 14 18:49:07 Anastasia but care has always been associated with women,
and care work has nearly always been undertaken
by the working class
Jul 14 18:49:10 Cecilia Yes indeed Camille! Help = masc, Care = fem?
Jul 14 18:49:22 Anastasia so I think that it is valued much less in our culture
Jul 14 18:49:54 niccolo Yes Anastasia, totally.
Jul 14 18:49:58 Cecilia This notion of help is also wrapped up in a
paternalistic attitude towards 'the poor', the needy
Jul 14 18:50:27 Camille yes i agree that care has definitely been devalued
and degraded. but i think the helping ethic is also
feminisied - just a different class (middle class)
that help / do charity TO the working class
Jul 14 18:50:36 * nela has quit (Ping timeout)
Jul 14 18:50:38 Lauren my experience is thet it is nonetheless not at all
straightforward to really make mutual aid 'mutual',
how to get around the idea of some needing help and
some offering it creating 'charitable' dynamics?
Jul 14 18:50:47 * acpstudio has quit (Ping timeout)
Jul 14 18:50:57 Lauren (or could replace help with care)
Jul 14 18:51:13 Cecilia For me, potentially the (re)emergence of mutual aid
is indicative of a new wave of energy of changing
this idea of institutional, or institutionalised help
Jul 14 18:51:35 Cecilia disrupting the problematic dynamics of 'help from above'
Jul 14 18:51:43 Anastasia that's a great question Lauren, such projects often
start with the best intentions but these hierarchical
dynamics persist
Jul 14 18:51:54 Lauren it feels very connected to class privelege
Jul 14 18:52:04 Camille lauren - definitely agree that it is not always
obvious what separates charity from mutual aid -- i think
there is something in there about access and
pariticipation and POWER!
Jul 14 18:52:28 Cecilia @Camille Definitely agree about power!
Jul 14 18:52:58 Lauren the trouble / key is: how do people who have never
had power come to believe they have it?
Jul 14 18:52:58 Camille so there is something about can people take control
of the help that is being delivered
Jul 14 18:53:04 Chelsea I disagree Help should be unconditionally
Jul 14 18:53:10 elisabeth in mutual aid everyone has a stake
Jul 14 18:53:13 Anastasia this is something that we've been reflecting on
in our Covid-19 mutual aid group in the Shacklewell
ward - while it is based on the principles of mutual
aid and in a diverse borough, the organising
team is not as diverse
Jul 14 18:53:37 Lauren @Anastasia - exactly
Jul 14 18:53:47 Cecilia @Anastasia, absolutely agree, there might be some
participants who have more capacity
Jul 14 18:53:50 Ruth @anastasia why do you think this is?
Jul 14 18:53:50 niccolo i think charity is giving to those in need, generosity
is giving to others what you might not even
have enough for yourself. and mutual aid is when this
becomes a constant flow where all benefit from
contributing or from contributions.
Jul 14 18:54:11 * Suol (3e40cec6@webchat.ircnet.net) has joined
Jul 14 18:54:34 Lauren @niccolo - agreed! but it's not obvious for everyone
to feel they have something to give
Jul 14 18:54:45 niccolo totally Lauren
Jul 14 18:54:46 Camille i think the other element @niccolo is that mutual aid
is about trying to address the structural issues
that cause us to need solidarity in the first place
Jul 14 18:54:46 Lauren when society has long given them the message that they do not
Jul 14 18:55:11 * elisabeth (33c6595d@webchat.ircnet.net) has left
Jul 14 18:55:12 Anastasia @Ruth - I think that it has to do with various things:
time and availability during the pandemic,
confidence in undertaking organising roles (that relates
to class, race, and gender and previous experience)
Jul 14 18:55:15 niccolo yes Camille, grasping a sense of the framework gives
purpose to actions which otherwise might risk feeling menial
Jul 14 18:55:35 * elisabeth_ (33c6595d@webchat.ircnet.net) has joined
Jul 14 18:55:40 Chelsea I think the term mutual is misleading because people
might expect something in return
Jul 14 18:55:44 niccolo here in Chicago, since the beginning of COVID, I have
seen and been part almost spontaneously of chats and group
texts on Signal passing on information about where help is
needed and who needs it....some sort of intelligent
network of people sharing info, checking it, and then
with BLM, listening to police scaners, posting needs for
supplies, etc. Very simple, few pictures, short texts.
To focus on real needs we need a space devoid of dis
Jul 14 18:55:45 Cecilia @ Ruth @Anastasia - This is also the case when we look
at mutual credit systems, and their circulation,
Jul 14 18:55:59 Chelsea whereas aid should be always without expectations
Jul 14 18:56:12 niccolo yes Chelsea very true
Jul 14 18:56:40 Camille it also means that our organising of mutual aid isn't
just about maintain the status quo / but about building
the power to change it -- that is a key difference for me
Jul 14 18:56:45 Ruth @cecilia please say more about mutual credit systems
Jul 14 18:56:48 Cecilia thanks for joining us from Chicago @niccolo - amazing
culture and history of organising there!
Jul 14 18:56:52 Anastasia but also it has to do with the difficulty in bridging
divides, even within the same borough - people may be
dubious about mutual aid when they don't know how it
works or who runs it and prefer to rely on neighbours
that they already know or family
Jul 14 18:57:22 Lauren yes, @Anastasia - those issues of trust / suspicion are huge
Jul 14 18:57:22 Camille i think that is because of how deep the violence of
charity runs in the UK
Jul 14 18:57:23 niccolo yes Cecilia, learning every minute - also not having
ANY expectations of aid from public systems kinda makes
it inevitable :)
Jul 14 18:57:25 Ruth Yes @camille.
Jul 14 18:58:02 Cecilia @Anastasia @ Ruth the issue that often occurred in
mutual credit systems is that many people wanted to
participate and give their time/resources but actually
found it hard to receive! indicative also of the privileges
in understanding and accessing such systems
Jul 14 18:58:19 cristina in former Soviet countries, aid is associated with
clear power hierarchies. for me, the word "mutual"
dispels these associations
Jul 14 18:58:28 Chelsea @Cecilia great point
Jul 14 18:58:29 cristina (receiving aid from the West)
Jul 14 18:58:35 Anastasia @Niccolo I think that you raise an important issue
regarding state help...in the
Jul 14 18:59:02 Truce_ Why is relying on neighbours and family/friends not
considered as mutual aid?
Jul 14 18:59:46 Camille i think the points about how uncomfortable "receiving help"
is / how bound up with power such exchanges are / really
is at the heart of what separates charity from mutual aid
Jul 14 18:59:47 * Harry_ (c24b1776@webchat.ircnet.net) has joined
Jul 14 18:59:55 Cecilia @Cristina. yep! anyone know the activists No White Saviors?
https://www.instagram.com/nowhitesaviors
Jul 14 19:00:10 Lauren @truce - is it something about a specific form of s
olidarity developed under specific circumstances? Which
then builds capacities that didn't exist otherwise?
Jul 14 19:00:15 niccolo Mutual is related to words as "mutation" too, from
Latin "mutare" which means to change. It took on a
meaning of "exchange" only when it began being the
descriptive word the banking system used to describe
physical exchange of goods rather than currency. but
the word can still mean that something is done expecting
that something "changes" in return.
Jul 14 19:00:19 Lauren @Cecilia - they are BAD ASS
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Jul 14 19:00:32 Cecilia :-)
Jul 14 19:00:41 Anastasia to continue the point about state aid, you see the
differences between the US and the UK, with the popularity
here of the NHS first responders scheme (that mirrors
the trust towards the NHS)
Jul 14 19:00:45 niccolo no who are the No White Saviors?
Jul 14 19:00:46 Harry_ Do you think true mutual aid only happens when we
are in survival mode?
Jul 14 19:00:49 cristina @Cecilia, didn't know them before, thanks!
Jul 14 19:01:08 Camille @truce i think it can be mutual aid - but there need
to be more to relations than helping each other out
Jul 14 19:01:24 Anastasia @Truce - it is mutual aid, but it meant that people
didn't trust the mutual aid groups in the area if they
didn't know anyone who was involved in the group
Jul 14 19:01:31 niccolo @Harry - i think it only begins massively when we are
in survival mode, but it doesn't need survival mode to
keep existing
Jul 14 19:01:40 Cecilia No White Saviors doing some AMAZING work addressing
this question of 'white saviorism', unpacking intentions
behind 'international development' and 'aid'
Jul 14 19:02:16 niccolo @Cecilia oh boy, can I say something about the "white
saviors" wrecking BLM protests here?...
Jul 14 19:02:17 Camille yeah i agree i think crisis / disasters / emergencies
are overwhelmingly the driver behind mutual aid efforts
Jul 14 19:02:30 niccolo @cecilia you touch such a true point here
Jul 14 19:02:30 Cecilia @niccolo LOL
Jul 14 19:03:10 Anastasia I agree that crises are catalysts - the book 'Paradise
Built in Hell' by Rebecca Solnit is a key resource here
Jul 14 19:03:11 Cecilia @camille yes but also there is a submerged history of
different mutual aid groups, thinking about how migrants
support one another
Jul 14 19:03:35 Cecilia @Anastasia yes ! good shout on that!!
Jul 14 19:03:45 Ruth @cecilia do you think white saviourism is prevalent in
current Mutual Aid work
Jul 14 19:04:12 Camille totally - but i think the crisis of the border / crisis
of racism / being pushed to the margins of the labour
market produce the conditions for why so many migrant
communities develop mutual aid networks
Jul 14 19:04:24 Cecilia agree
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Jul 14 19:04:45 Cecilia here's one i prepared earlier :-) mutual aid organisations
(usually supporting people from specific countries
or ethnicities) have historically assisted new arrivals
to find work and get settled, including fighting racial
inequality - my parents would have drawn on the expertise
of clan associations when they arrived from China to
Singapore, and again, they tapped into a network of
fellow Singaporeans when they came to the UK.
Jul 14 19:04:58 Ruth ;)
Jul 14 19:04:59 Harry_ Do you think that mutual aid is inherently a selfish
act if its origins come from the idea of survival
Jul 14 19:05:36 niccolo @harry it can't be selfish because you can't mutually
aid yourself, you need at least another person, right?
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Jul 14 19:05:42 Chelsea Aid in itself is mostly selfish
Jul 14 19:05:58 Harry_ That's right!! But the reasoning behind the aid giving
I mean
Jul 14 19:06:16 Anastasia @Harry no I don't think so - that is if it is related
to the survival of the collective or the group - and
what crises and catastrophes show you is the interdependency,
how you need a group of people in order to survive
Jul 14 19:06:20 sprprtr Harry_ it depends on the underlying intention
Jul 14 19:06:24 niccolo @harry it depends if you are helping others the way
they want to be helped or the way you want to help them
Jul 14 19:06:28 Cecilia not necessarily, makes me think about Fred Moten/Stefano
Harney Undercommons, and how they describe debt...
bonds that bond us together... how debt makes the
community in some messed up way as well
Jul 14 19:07:17 Anastasia @Cecilia - yes, it is a first step at creating bonds,
once that mesh is in place one can think about the
types of bonds and power dynamics
Jul 14 19:07:18 Camille @harry what makes you think it is selfish?
Jul 14 19:07:42 * Bergit_ (5b7dfbbc@webchat.ircnet.net) has joined
Jul 14 19:07:56 Harry_ That we all ultimately have the same goal to survive
@camille
Jul 14 19:08:05 Harry_ And that goal is selfish
Jul 14 19:08:08 Lauren I wonder whether we have to attach a negative value
to the preservation of self (selfishness) if that is
done with others not at their expense?
Jul 14 19:08:31 Harry_ Thats a good point Lauren...
Jul 14 19:08:35 Cecilia agree^^
Jul 14 19:08:39 Anastasia agree
Jul 14 19:09:03 * M___ has quit (Ping timeout)
Jul 14 19:09:08 Camille yeah i agree with @lauren i think it is important to
be able to claim the desire to live / to survive and
for others to as well
Jul 14 19:09:32 Lauren This is where the class dynamics are complicated in
current mutual aid tho - not everyone is really "in the
same boat" in relation to survival
Jul 14 19:09:38 Camille selfishness is doing that at others expense / getting
ahead while others starve etc
Jul 14 19:09:42 * Tech94 (522e7851@webchat.ircnet.net) has joined
Jul 14 19:09:55 Camille i wanted to come back to bons
Jul 14 19:09:59 Camille *bonds
Jul 14 19:10:01 niccolo @harry for sure aid, since it addresses a need/scarcity,
can influence the aided profoundly so there is "power"
in aid which needs to be protected from abuse and
mystification. but that's true with many things, I
think the interesting part here is more how do you
manage the flow of distribution of aid and participation
so that selfishness is structurally excluded.
Jul 14 19:10:09 Ruth yes@camille?
Jul 14 19:10:13 Chelsea @Camille that's not true selfishness is also helping
because it makes you fee good
Jul 14 19:11:01 jesfernie Hello all! I'm interested in something Cecilia said
earlier about mutual aid as an attempt to deal with
the structural issues that cause us to need solidarity.
ie mutual aid as a way to confront / deconstruct
capitalism and its use of bodies and exchanges as
a form of currency.
Jul 14 19:11:19 Ruth Good point @Lauren - made so much more starkly obvious
with the pandemic
Jul 14 19:11:26 Harry_ I agree with you again Lauren...within the capitalist
system we don't come from the same a mutual starting
place
Jul 14 19:11:30 Chelsea @niccolo not possible to structural exclude selfishness
Jul 14 19:11:48 * Luke73 (56bf3ae8@webchat.ircnet.net) has joined
Jul 14 19:12:05 Anastasia @Chelsea - true but we cannot expect people's
motivations to be true. I think that we shouldn't
only be focusing on the intentions underlying the
act but also on the results. What if I help someone
because I want to survive myself and it makes me
feel good - but through the act of caring I then
develop bonds of care and empathy with others and
help in the survival of the group?
Jul 14 19:12:06 niccolo @chelsea I think technology in a way has already
experimented structures that can solve these issues.
Jul 14 19:12:35 Camille because i am not sure i think we need bonds to exist
before mutual aid is possible. i think certain
crises - say like an earthquake / big flood / the
mega fires in australia / strip away the existing
barriers and social relations that keep us from working
together.
Jul 14 19:12:52 Anastasia I think that focusing too much on this kind of
guilt is another problem of White Saviourism - if
you are in survival mode, there is no luxury for
that kind of questioning
Jul 14 19:13:02 Cecilia agree
Jul 14 19:13:03 niccolo exactly
Jul 14 19:13:10 Chelsea @nicoolo interesting care to explain which tech structures
do that
Jul 14 19:13:11 sprprtr +1
Jul 14 19:13:12 Cecilia we can learn a lot from disability justice movement
Jul 14 19:13:24 Cecilia i wanted to share a quote from Leah Lakshmi Piepzna-Samarasinha,
who wrote Care Work - Dreaming Disability Justice.
"I want us to dream mutual aid in our post-apocalyptic
revolutionary societies where everyone gets to access
many kinds of care"
Jul 14 19:13:25 Lauren @Cecilia absolutely
Jul 14 19:13:56 Lauren the way disability justice really makes use of the
capacities individuals do and don't have is super
relevant
Jul 14 19:14:00 Chelsea @Cecilia beautiful
Jul 14 19:14:15 Anastasia @Cecilia that's a great quote
Jul 14 19:14:25 Cecilia YES! building capacities when we don't have the spoons
(spoon theory)
Jul 14 19:14:57 Cecilia spoon theory = Christine Miserandino
Jul 14 19:15:13 Anastasia and it points to another reason reason of why I
like to focus on mutual aid - its emphasis is on
what happens when we win,
Jul 14 19:15:28 Ruth :)
Jul 14 19:15:33 Lauren yes - and knowing that there's a sort of general store
of spoons that you give and take from freely and as you
need - tho Leah does point out that sometimes there
are imbalances
Jul 14 19:15:39 Cecilia @Anastasia - what do you mean by win?
Jul 14 19:16:06 Camille i think one problem we have with the coming period -
is that ecological crisis is going to mean winning
will come with a lot more issues
Jul 14 19:16:08 Anastasia what I mean is that a lot of social movement work
focuses on critique, on overthrowing what's already
there
Jul 14 19:16:30 Anastasia but not on what happens once we have managed to
revolt and overthrow, what do we build then?
Jul 14 19:16:33 Cecilia @Lauren yes definitely and how we navigate between
us when the imbalances become overwhelming
Jul 14 19:16:40 Chelsea There is no winning in mutual aid
Jul 14 19:16:55 niccolo what I'm seeing here in Chicago is somewhat similar
to how SETI ran its distributed memory network years
ago. Issues get "broken down" in packets, and you
depending on the time and resources you have you get
to work on one or multiple "packets", knowing that
the chain will work 99% of times. This reduces the
thinking and maximises the acting, which works great
for survival mode.
Jul 14 19:17:09 niccolo much like the Internet Protocol
Jul 14 19:17:14 * Uk (5284ea36@webchat.ircnet.net) has joined
Jul 14 19:17:18 sprprtr :-)
Jul 14 19:17:34 Camille i think the reference to winning is refers to quote
above "post-apocalyptic revolutionary societies"
Jul 14 19:17:38 Cecilia @niccolo - true!
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Jul 14 19:18:10 niccolo so I am sketical that selfishenss cannot be structurally
excluded - maybe not entirely but it can totally be
minimised or reduced
Jul 14 19:18:38 Anastasia @Camille - agreed! @Lauren- also agreed - there
is no winning in mutual aid.
Jul 14 19:18:48 Cecilia agree ^^
Jul 14 19:19:07 Camille @chelsea i dont think anyone was referring to mutual
aid as "winning" etc. it is part of the counter
power / forms of infrastructure / ways of organising
/ ecology of care that means we can win though!
Jul 14 19:19:11 Chelsea @niccolo totally agree
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Jul 14 19:19:59 niccolo @anastasia yes maybe because it's not about winning,
it's about being here, existing without fearing for
ourselves all the time. this winning/losing mentality
is exactly what brings tons of white protesters to
do whatever they want with BLM marches because they
think "they're not confronting police enough"
Jul 14 19:20:14 Lauren @niccolo can you say more about the 'packets'? in what
context are things broken down and what kinds of things?
Jul 14 19:20:16 Cecilia @camille, maybe mutual aid IS a core part of that
building anew?
Jul 14 19:20:22 niccolo ok @Lauren
Jul 14 19:20:28 niccolo here's an example
Jul 14 19:20:51 Camille i think the work of Silvia Federici is also really
useful here - when she asked " how do we need to organise
to create healthy self-sustaining movements?" and i
think mutual aid / she would point to the politics of
social reproduction specifically is part of the answer
to that question
Jul 14 19:21:14 Chelsea @Camille I think that is a very wrong thought. alone
the idea that mutual aid is counter power is thought
from a point of privilege that is very wrong and not
even remotely true for other cultures
Jul 14 19:21:15 Cecilia totally!! ^^
Jul 14 19:21:23 PJ But don't you think mutual aid has a lot to do with access
and having the privilege and know how to access it ?
Doesn't it have to do with education and understanding
of these themes? And with that can it be that often having
that education means we come from a place of privilege?
Jul 14 19:21:33 Cecilia oops.. i will come back to that 'totally'!!
Jul 14 19:22:44 Anastasia @Camille @Cecilia - I think it is and this is what
I meant by 'what happens when we win' (which I realise
it's easy to be misinterpreted) - it's the focus on
the structures that we'd like to build rather than
placing emphasis on the antagonism with structures
that we'd like to overthrow. Of course, we cannot
disregard the latter, but building power means that
we need to let our imagination roam free beyond
the dominant frameworks. When
Jul 14 19:22:45 niccolo every day since June in Chicago there is always more
than one single protest happening, so that Police cannot
possible concentrate all its forces on one group. what
happens is, every protest gets broken down in two main
areas: frontline and backline. then frontline si broken
down into food, supplies, secutiry, cleaning, filming,
marching, car support and jail support. each one of
these becomes a chat on Signal and you sign in our
out of i
Jul 14 19:23:01 Chelsea @PJ I totally agree just take the idea of mutual aid
to a poverty driven community in Africa
Jul 14 19:23:02 Anastasia ... structures we struggle with our imagination is
captured by them
Jul 14 19:23:16 niccolo notified about say "water needed at Western /Belmont
precint for arrested folks who are getting out" "tampons
nneded at Homan Square"
Jul 14 19:23:24 Camille hmmm. i am not sure i understand what you are disagreeing
with? that mutual aid is a form of counter - power?
for me counter power is about building alternatives
Jul 14 19:23:27 niccolo the same happens with unemployed people
Jul 14 19:23:34 niccolo entire neighborhoods
Jul 14 19:23:59 niccolo so basically if it's 2 pm and you have a free hour
you can always find something to do that will make the
relay continue
Jul 14 19:24:08 niccolo all safe from authorities
Jul 14 19:24:28 Lauren @niccolo WOW!
Jul 14 19:24:34 Harry_ I am also unsure if you can say that mutual aid is
an act that only happens from a place of privelege
Jul 14 19:24:35 Chelsea counter power in its name is a didactical error when
brought up along the lines of mutual aid
Jul 14 19:25:01 Anastasia @Chelsea what do you mean by that?
Jul 14 19:25:07 niccolo @lauren when you add on top networks like Nextdoor
or Citizen (which are full of Karens going nuts too but
you get to know stuff) you have a full circle
Jul 14 19:25:15 Camille sorry - i dont understand what that means? wanna try
saying it with less jargon
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Jul 14 19:26:09 Lauren @niccolo - is that quite localised or city-wide? Does
it interface with other mutual aid network activities?
Jul 14 19:26:29 Lauren And are the mutual aid groups networked with each other?
Jul 14 19:26:36 niccolo e.g. ICE is starting a "citizen academy" program to
train neighbors in arresting us (immigrants) in chicago
and we knew it weeks before the press did cz there are
lawyers as well as janitors in the chats. you wouldn't
have a chance to infiltrate something like that without
this "blind" network.
Jul 14 19:26:40 Camille so maybe it would be interesting useful to put some
examples of mutual aid - beyond the excellent examples
from niccolo
Jul 14 19:26:49 Ruth Further to Camille's point - let's try to use as little
jargon as possible
Jul 14 19:26:49 niccolo @lauren i can speak for chicago, I am not sure they
have the same going on in Brooklyn for instance
Jul 14 19:27:03 Chelsea Is there a curator? so many questions get ignored
Jul 14 19:27:19 niccolo but it clicks where it needs and keeps information
away from unwanted lurkers (e.g. white priders
interceoting chats and coming to town with baseball
bats)
Jul 14 19:27:32 Camille yes there is a curators - @ruth
Jul 14 19:27:37 Lauren @niccolo - how do you keep those folks out?
Jul 14 19:28:00 Cecilia i think there are many different practices and ways
of being that might not be 'called' mutual aid, but
in fact are....
Jul 14 19:28:16 * acp_studio has quit (Ping timeout)
Jul 14 19:28:47 niccolo @lauren you kind of know the audience of each social
network, like you would never post info on facebook
for instance. and then the Signal chats add people
manually so you kind of feel safe.
Jul 14 19:29:00 Ruth Hi @chelsea
Jul 14 19:29:15 niccolo @lauren some info gets boosted on twitter or insta,
but it's like 5% of the info you find on Signal.
Jul 14 19:29:21 UP_Projects If you have just joined: Welcome to "Mutual Aid
in the time of Uncertainty" hosted as part of
Common Bond Society by Larisa Blazic and commissioned
by UP Projects. Tonight’s agenda items: 1. Now:
Mutual aid in the age of uncertainty 2. Next:
Mutual aid beyond moments of crisis We are
discussing the role mutual aid has played in the
context of the current Covid-19 pandemic and
considering how we can harness mutual aid tactics t
Jul 14 19:29:28 Ruth Thanks for noticing unanswered questions. The conversation
is so lively that I fear some questions may have been lost
Jul 14 19:29:31 Lauren gotcha - making use of the echo chamber effect for good!
Jul 14 19:29:47 Ruth Please can people repost any important questions that
have gone unanswered
Jul 14 19:30:18 Chelsea @ruth its fine, its still very good
Jul 14 19:30:21 PJ Don't you think mutual aid has a lot to do with access
and having the privilege and know how to access it ? Doesn't
it have to do with education and understanding of these
themes? And with that can it be that often having that
education means we come from a place of privilege?
Jul 14 19:30:35 niccolo @lauren yes, that and "protocolling" is key and I'm
loving it (expect getting 500 notifications at night,
next time i forget my phone off silent i'll be single
again i fear)
Jul 14 19:30:40 Anastasia @Niccolo this is a very interesting case study of
decentralised organising but... it's worth noting
the power of administrators of Signal and Whatsapp
groups. If there is no rotation they end up becoming
unofficial leaders
Jul 14 19:30:54 niccolo there is rotation absolutely
Jul 14 19:31:04 niccolo totally Anastaia, that's key
Jul 14 19:31:12 Ruth Also thanks for posting the agenda Upprojects
Jul 14 19:31:34 Lauren @niccolo - what's 'protocolling'?
Jul 14 19:31:34 * iannes (92c68398@webchat.ircnet.net) has joined
Jul 14 19:31:40 Ruth Perhaps it would be nice for people to think about what
we can take from past and existing mutual aid practices...
Jul 14 19:31:42 Camille @PJ i think the notion of privilege and access are
key to the concept of charity - but that mutual aid
is precisely working to undo those power relations.
Jul 14 19:32:09 niccolo @lauren the way i call this "breaking down of tasks
into packets" like the TCP/IP internet protocol that
brings us all together here now
Jul 14 19:32:10 Ruth and think about what we need to take forward immediately
Jul 14 19:32:14 Ruth and into the future
Jul 14 19:32:16 Anastasia @PJ very good question. Yes I agree. This is what
I was implying in a previous point about people's
mistrust of mutual aid groups - they don't know what
they are or what they stand for and prefer not to
get involved bur rely on other networks of care
(families etc.)
Jul 14 19:32:24 Lauren I think PJ makes a good point that mutual aid may
intend to undo those relations but it's not as accessible
as some like to think
Jul 14 19:32:24 PJ Mutual aid in itself is a term that won't be very accessible
to people though.
Jul 14 19:32:34 Cecilia agree PJ
Jul 14 19:32:54 PJ Even mutual aid groups, if you don't have the education
or the access then it will be hard to organise yourself
Jul 14 19:33:02 Cecilia there are probably loads of activities, practices
that one *could* call mutual aid, but those participamts
might not call it so!!
Jul 14 19:33:02 Lauren @niccolo - got it, thx!
Jul 14 19:33:04 niccolo @ruth my partisan gandmother used to tell me how they
did information and aid relays back then
Jul 14 19:33:21 Camille but i dont think we would call everything that is mutual
aid "mutual aid" --- we might call it a food pantry
/ or a housing board etc
Jul 14 19:33:27 Harry_ Thats what I think Cecilia - people will be practicing
mutual aid without knowing it
Jul 14 19:33:32 Anastasia @PJ and @Cecilia absolutely true
Jul 14 19:33:36 PJ in many ways I find the term quite isolating and i wonder
if there are ways of organising that is more inclusive to
people
Jul 14 19:33:42 Chelsea @PJ very true
Jul 14 19:33:47 Harry_ Interesting Camille what is the definition then
Jul 14 19:33:53 Lauren there are lots of groups that have found other names
Jul 14 19:33:57 Ruth @niccolo what is it particularly about the aid information
relays that we can carry forward
Jul 14 19:33:58 Lauren for that reason
Jul 14 19:34:03 PJ what structures would we need to make it more accessible,
how can we organise in ways that makes it more open?
Jul 14 19:34:06 Ruth censorship resistance?
Jul 14 19:34:20 Cecilia @PJ @Chelsea, especially now since the term 'sharing'
has been contaminated :-0
Jul 14 19:34:26 Lauren @PJ - I think the fact so much of it has unfolded
online is a significant barrier
Jul 14 19:34:42 Anastasia @PJ on the one hand, I agree, on the other, I'm
not sure I'd like us to use a different term without
the anarchist connotations of mutual aid... But perhaps
I'm being too conservative!
Jul 14 19:34:57 Camille i live in a conservative tory area rural area of england...
Jul 14 19:34:59 PJ 100% but in a time post corona, how else can we organise?
Jul 14 19:35:09 PJ I would be interested to hear your thoughts?
Jul 14 19:35:14 niccolo @ruth when she carried a message, she always had only
half of a piece of a note that someone else gave her.
so she couldn't possibly hijack it and if she was
caught she could fake it and she wouldn't know too much.
Jul 14 19:35:27 Cecilia notices in our shared buildings and spaces :-)
Jul 14 19:35:28 * jesfernie has quit (Ping timeout)
Jul 14 19:35:29 niccolo @ruth the person she'd meet would have the other matching
ripped half
Jul 14 19:35:36 niccolo and then they'd disapprear
Jul 14 19:35:38 Chelsea why would mutual aid have an anarchy connotation -
that is quite the opposite from what it should be
Jul 14 19:36:11 Anastasia @niccolo, this is fascinating. There are so many
accounts of the use of digital media for organising,
but much less about the use of media in past for
internal organising purposes (speaking as an academic
research this now)
Jul 14 19:36:24 Ruth So we have a surveillance-proof communication network
Jul 14 19:36:31 Cecilia YES!!
Jul 14 19:36:51 niccolo @anastasia if that is what you research I have a trove
of these things, passed on down by my old folks who ended
up (or almost did) in concentration camp
Jul 14 19:36:53 Cecilia which in itself is a currency!
Jul 14 19:37:11 Cecilia sorry... i meant @ ruth :-0
Jul 14 19:37:38 Cecilia (tmany messages crossing over) #irclife
Jul 14 19:37:49 Camille @chelsea i think the notion of anarchy / anarchist
organising here is referring to building power outside
of the state / self-organisation of the working class
etc
Jul 14 19:37:52 Ruth But still the question is whether Mutual Aid as a concept
contains in its bones a sense of resistance against
oppression
Jul 14 19:38:18 Ruth that carries widely
Jul 14 19:38:23 Anastasia @PJ we've been struggling with this in our mutual
aid group. The most recent development is to do some
outreach with local organisations, such as
Tenant/residents associations and perhaps to go
door-to-door and ask people what they are involved
in and how they are addressing the needs of our community
(i.e. trying to go outside the bubble of our group
but not from a position of power, 'we're here to help
you' mentality)
Jul 14 19:38:30 Lauren @ruth - yes, that's key. I think the answer is yes,
and yet we need to be attentive to where those bones
can be layered with oppressive flesh
Jul 14 19:38:37 Chelsea well I think you need to look dee into the term anarchy
in history before using it...this is not a fad
Jul 14 19:38:39 Emma_ How does mutual aid manifest when we are not fighting
for survival?
Jul 14 19:38:47 iannes @ruth It does but there is a danger that the current
wave of 'mutual aid' (largely organised by white middle
classes) overshadows, even colonizes, a much longer
history of mutual aid-type activity, that was never called
'mutual aid' within black and working class communities.
Jul 14 19:39:15 Chelsea I am with @Emma and think we should move to her topic
Jul 14 19:39:18 elisabeth_ @emma good question.
Jul 14 19:39:19 Cecilia @iannes yes!
Jul 14 19:39:20 Lauren @Anastasia - that kind of shoe-leather work is key,
and hard to motivate people to do...
Jul 14 19:39:38 Ruth @iannes I would like to hear what @camille things
Jul 14 19:39:46 Harry_ @Emma_ agreed that is what is interesting
Jul 14 19:39:52 Camille @emma i think many communities would say that they
are pretty much constantly fighting for survival
Jul 14 19:39:53 Anastasia @Lauren yes and it is frightening, because it truly
means stepping out of your bubble
Jul 14 19:40:13 Ruth Yes @Camille
Jul 14 19:40:14 Chelsea Can we go back to @Emma
Jul 14 19:40:17 iannes @Camille Eshe Kiama Zuri: "There is a cause for concern
when groups claim mutual aid and community support
whilst being run and populated by white and middle-class
people, landlords, police officers, local councillors
and those pushing state agendas – participating in racism,
diffusing radical organising and removing and a lack
of access for 'undesirable' vulnerable people. When
you see a mass movement that only comes into existence
Jul 14 19:40:33 Lauren @iannes I'm glad you referenced her
Jul 14 19:40:35 PJ @Camilie, do you think that post corona this wave of mutual
aid will stay as active as it is now?
Jul 14 19:40:36 iannes society start needing support, then there is really
something to question."
Jul 14 19:40:41 Anastasia @Emma following up on @Camille's point, we could
enlarge the meaning of survival and urgency
Jul 14 19:40:57 elisabeth_ On the back of @Emma's question about survival
of mutual iad groups, there was a comment earlier
on in the chat when it was suggested that if people
in the community don't know about mutual aid, it
means that mutual aid groups are not trusted.
Sorry to paraphrase but that was an interesting
point worth unpicking
Jul 14 19:41:00 Chelsea @Iannes tottally
Jul 14 19:41:22 PJ I think trust is super important!
Jul 14 19:41:32 Harry_ I think you are right @camille but what the pandemic
did was bring about a collective mode of survival
Jul 14 19:41:36 Anastasia the climate change movement has recently been more
successful in doing exactly that, so we are in survival
mode as a species
Jul 14 19:41:37 PJ How can we maintain and build trust online in our current
context?
Jul 14 19:41:45 PJ is that even possible ?
Jul 14 19:41:59 Cecilia yes and there are issues about visibility that i would
like to pick up - how can it be safe for people to be
visible, trust one another IRL?
Jul 14 19:42:18 Camille for sure i think there is a hell of lot of organising -
going under the name of "mutual aid" that looks more
like state management / charity / church work / aid etc.
Jul 14 19:42:23 Camille but that is beside the point
Jul 14 19:42:28 Ruth @elisabeth_ you make a good point - to talk about the
use of the idea of "mutual aid" is not just a theoretical
stick - it is about what we can do with it because of how
people understand it and can therefore use it
Jul 14 19:42:41 Anastasia @PJ I think that common work is crucial when it comes
to building trust online - the experience of working
with each other addresses some of the issues of online
trust-building
Jul 14 19:42:52 Lauren @Cecilia that's a good question - there's something
about all this online communication that makes stereotyping
much less of an issue
Jul 14 19:42:58 Camille in that there is much organising that claims to be
feminist that is anything but - as another example
Jul 14 19:43:32 Lauren @Camille - where I am the council are trying to 'support'
mutual aid
Jul 14 19:43:37 sprprtr Anastasia +1
Jul 14 19:43:39 Cecilia @Lauren @Camille agree with you both. its complex
though, there are different types of access IRL/online
Jul 14 19:43:47 Lauren I am worried its a co-option
Jul 14 19:43:48 * jk (4f435f18@webchat.ircnet.net) has joined
Jul 14 19:43:55 Camille @lauren yes i have heard a lot of instances of that --
Jul 14 19:43:56 PJ I also think the online involvement has shown us a lot
about confidence. There is something easier and more
accessible about accessing mutual aid online. I think
often especially when we are working on an approach that
is non-hierarchical how do people gain that confidence
to offer help but also to receive it?
Jul 14 19:44:07 Camille also the demand that people have police checks etc
Jul 14 19:44:37 elisabeth_ @PJ good point, personally I would love to learn
more about that as well as ideas of visibility
and trust.
Jul 14 19:44:51 Ruth Can we talk more about the problems of co-optation @camille
Jul 14 19:44:52 Chelsea @PJ very true that although in other cultures this
is not the case it might be a Western World problem
Jul 14 19:45:06 WonderWhy72 I think the issue of time is also key - people
are weary of committing for a long period of time,
or with no "end of contract" in sight
Jul 14 19:45:19 Camille i think the point about the current context is that
Covid-19 is a test run for what is coming in terms of
the ecological crisis - so yes cooption is very much
something we need to think abotu
Jul 14 19:45:21 PJ @chelsea in what way? interested to hear your thoughts?
Jul 14 19:45:33 Chelsea In other cultures we share food free from hierarchies
and whoever sits down at the table even if we don't
have enough
Jul 14 19:45:38 Chelsea as an example
Jul 14 19:45:50 Anastasia @PJ but the digital divide is still in play, there
were people who found it difficult to ask help on
Whatsapp for instance. For mutual aid groups operating
a standard phoneline was crucial. And at times, we
had to help with requests relating to technology
Jul 14 19:46:00 Cecilia i think the police checks brings up aagain this super
important point - about safety. if mutual aid activity is
coopted by institutions then who does it lock out...
Jul 14 19:46:02 Lauren @Camille - I have experienced interactions where it
appears the council expects mutual aid to fill holes
left by austerity
Jul 14 19:46:12 iannes Alan Lane of Slung Low in Leeds has written excellently
about co-option.
Jul 14 19:46:24 Lauren puts me in mind of 'big society'.... how do we avoid
that logic??
Jul 14 19:46:41 Cecilia @Lauren @camille i was just about to say that!!
Jul 14 19:46:42 Anastasia @Camille @Lauren this is a danger and more of a risk
now as local authorities will be losing revenue
Jul 14 19:46:44 PJ @good point! is the difference then our systemic structures
and do you think mutual aid and it's political act can
play a role in changing these
Jul 14 19:47:05 Camille yes i think after 10 years of austerity and withdrawal
of the state - the question of how we organise ourselves
going forward.
Jul 14 19:47:12 Ruth Good question @PJ
Jul 14 19:47:16 Camille i am thinking here about food banks
Jul 14 19:47:17 Ruth gets to the heart
Jul 14 19:47:17 WonderWhy72 From a long time perspective - the role of the
state in providing aid is only very recent. As
human beings we have it in our genes to support
each other for survival.
Jul 14 19:47:42 iannes https://alanlaneblog.wordpress.com/2020/05/28/
blogpost-10-weeks-of-social-care-referrals-and-
keeping-promises/
Jul 14 19:47:50 Ruth Thanks @iannes!
Jul 14 19:47:52 Chelsea @PJ its a cultural issue a name alone won't change
the game it will be a long process of relearning trust
Jul 14 19:48:12 Lauren There's a decent amount of funding flowing to mutual
aid - I can't work out if that is positive redistribution
or co-option
Jul 14 19:48:24 Anastasia @Lauren me neither...
Jul 14 19:48:31 Cecilia @Chelsea yes which is difficult as covid has been a
time of even more heightened fear
Jul 14 19:48:33 Lauren Probably a bit of both!?
Jul 14 19:48:36 Anastasia both things could be true though!
Jul 14 19:49:12 Cecilia @Lauren @Anastasia yes agree, and that's where political
aspect of mutual aid remains important
Jul 14 19:49:13 Ruth I'm still not sure we have answered the question about
whether...
Jul 14 19:49:14 Anastasia in terms of trust, working within the locality and
with immediate neighbours seems to lessen the fear
about one's safety
Jul 14 19:49:26 Lauren @Cecilia - so how to define / maintain that politics?
Jul 14 19:49:32 Ruth mutual aid practices can inform the way we interact
moving forward?
Jul 14 19:49:41 Lauren esp when they might not align with the politics of
all participants in the group
Jul 14 19:49:56 Ruth Good question @lauren
Jul 14 19:50:01 PJ @ruth exactly that!
Jul 14 19:50:06 Emma_ @ruth thanks - yes this would be interesting to discuss
Jul 14 19:50:08 Anastasia and this is another interesting tension/dynamic
between mutual aid and state - the scale. Mutual
aid operates as a hyperlocal network with interconnected
localities
Jul 14 19:50:17 Chelsea again mutual aid should be unconditional of all politics
religious beliefs or what not
Jul 14 19:50:45 Chelsea it should and can not ever stand AGAINST anything
otherwise it would not be an aid
Jul 14 19:50:46 Camille i dont agree with that at all: i dont want to work with
fascists for example
Jul 14 19:50:47 Harry_ I would love to hear more from the panellists about
how we can move forward - how can the spirit of mutual
aid remain post Covid
Jul 14 19:50:48 Cecilia do you think that circling back to the 'care' helps
us think about this? i've been really interested in
care as a political act
Jul 14 19:51:32 Chelsea Yes Harry me to
Jul 14 19:51:42 WonderWhy72 me too
Jul 14 19:51:45 iannes me too
Jul 14 19:51:58 Emma_ yes please
Jul 14 19:52:03 Ruth We have 10 minutes left - and it would be great to hear
from the panel now about what the future of mutual aid
might be harnessed
Jul 14 19:52:10 PJ Me too, how can we move forward into tomorrow?
Jul 14 19:52:46 Cecilia for me (as someone who ahem didn't participate in
mutual aid group during covid), i'm on the long tail...
Jul 14 19:52:47 Camille moving forward for me means bringing into the frame
ecological crises that will and are already producing the
need for mutual aid/ the pandemic has been a case study.
but not all crisis will take the same shape.
Jul 14 19:52:47 Ruth and how might we create organisational systems to aid
the way we live and interact in the future?
Jul 14 19:53:34 Lauren @Ruth - do you mean organisational or organising systems?
Jul 14 19:53:35 Camille i think mutual aid is most powerful and useful when
it is located in place / and that we need to develop
ways of overcoming the alienation of online organising
Jul 14 19:53:51 Ruth Both @Lauren
Jul 14 19:53:56 Ruth Systems of organising
Jul 14 19:54:07 Ruth and organisational infrastructures
Jul 14 19:54:15 Cecilia this moment (BLM, covid, environmenal crisis) has
helped to resurface new energy in organising as an
activity
Jul 14 19:54:30 PJ @Camille how do you think that could manifest if people
can't meet in person though?
Jul 14 19:54:51 Anastasia one concrete way of moving forward is to use the
mutual aid networks that have been created to focus
on broader issues of survival in the community -
the coronavirus crisis will be followed by a deep
economic crisis and issues of housing, unemployment
etc. We also need to focus on survival in terms of
the ecological crises. And finally, we can always
reflect and correct/develop the networks that we
have already created to address their
Jul 14 19:55:21 Camille ^ agree - we have to be prepared and interested in
making mistakes. fail again fail better
Jul 14 19:55:28 niccolo on my end I can only suggest to try organising the
way BLM or COVID support networks are organised here:
it's very smooth and takcles many of the issues you've
raised today
Jul 14 19:55:32 Cecilia within my part of the cultural/arts sector, there is
a renewed desire to come together, put forward calls
for action and support one another collectively
Jul 14 19:55:37 elisabeth_ great point @Anastasia
Jul 14 19:55:49 Ruth Agreed @Cecilia
Jul 14 19:56:18 Lauren Agreed @Cecilia - collectivity as an antidote to
institutional power
Jul 14 19:56:29 iannes @Camille this is XR thinking, not everyone can afford
to be interested in making mistakes
Jul 14 19:56:30 Ruth Its time to wrap up :(
Jul 14 19:56:36 Ruth I would like to thank you all for your participation,
co-operation and ideas this evening! For those of you
who know people who were unable to attend the event today,
this conversation has been recorded and archived and will
be available to view from the end of this week within
this IRC chat room.
Jul 14 19:56:41 Cecilia .... this is especially so for communities of colour,
disabled folk, LGBTQI+ folk, working class folk...
even when there might not be enough spoons!!
Jul 14 19:56:47 Camille everyone makes mistakes
Jul 14 19:56:53 PJ @iannes ^agreed
Jul 14 19:56:53 Camille thinking that you dont is dangerous
Jul 14 19:57:08 Ruth I encourage you all now to explore Common Bond Society
further. Take a look at the other chat rooms available
to you, use these IRC rooms to facilitate conversations
you may wish to be having that may not be possible IRL
at the moment, read the resources available and…my personal
favourite...
Jul 14 19:57:28 Chelsea @ruth and @up project thank you for the great experience
Jul 14 19:57:31 Ruth Interact with the Kropotkin bot in the chat room Mutual
aid, it’s a political practice. Type in specific words
to discover key quotes from Mutual Aid: A Factor of
Evolution and learn more about the origins of mutual aid.
There will also be a second event associated with Common
Bond Society on 18 August that will take place in the
In this place of safety chatroom that will facilitate
a conversation around notions of safety with in the digi
Jul 14 19:57:57 * niccolo_ (45d79dec@webchat.ircnet.net) has joined
Jul 14 19:58:03 niccolo_ ouch my connection froze sorry
Jul 14 19:58:07 Ruth I would like to thank our participants this evening:
Larisa Blazic
Camille Barbagallo
Anastasia Kavada
Cecilia Wee
Jul 14 19:58:18 Cecilia *clap emoji
Jul 14 19:58:31 Ruth And all of the amazing participants who joined to make
this such a lively and wide ranging discussion
Jul 14 19:58:32 niccolo_ bravi!!!!
Jul 14 19:58:40 Cecilia thanks @Ruth @lara @UPProjects
Jul 14 19:58:43 iannes Will the transcript be available?
Jul 14 19:58:46 Ruth And thank you to UP Projects for commissioning this
artwork and convening the event tonight. I hope these
discussions can and will continue. Thank you!
And good night!
Jul 14 19:58:47 niccolo_ clap! clap!
Jul 14 19:58:48 sprprtr I had a blast - thank you Ruth, Anastasia Camille and
Ceilia - thank you all
Jul 14 19:58:50 Emma_ Thank you to you @Ruth and all the panelists!
Jul 14 19:58:51 sprprtr yes!
Jul 14 19:58:52 Anastasia thank you @Ruth for chairing @Up_projects and Lara
for organising and to all of you for such thought-provoking
questions and comments.
Jul 14 19:58:57 iannes Thank you!
Jul 14 19:59:01 Camille cheers
Jul 14 19:59:02 cristina Thank you all, great discussion!
Jul 14 19:59:08 ssd Thank you; lots to read up on from today
Jul 14 19:59:13 UP_Projects Thank you @Ruth
Jul 14 19:59:14 niccolo_ amazing yes!
Jul 14 19:59:16 sprprtr i will keep the log and upload it to the archive page
in the bnext few days
Jul 14 19:59:17 m---b thanks so much !
Jul 14 19:59:17 niccolo_ thanks ruth
Jul 14 19:59:18 Ruth Everyone can of course stick around to keep chatting
Jul 14 19:59:20 Lauren thanks alllllll
Jul 14 19:59:28 Lauren brilliant stuff
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Jul 14 19:59:32 Lauren Well done LARA!
Jul 14 19:59:32 Cecilia phew! managed to type :-)
Jul 14 19:59:41 sprprtr :-)
Jul 14 19:59:45 Anastasia :-)
Jul 14 19:59:45 Ruth Lara before we all head off....
Jul 14 19:59:51 * debhack28 has quit (Ping timeout)
Jul 14 19:59:51 sprprtr Yes
Jul 14 19:59:53 sprprtr ?
Jul 14 19:59:57 Ruth please can you tell us about the film in the background?
Jul 14 19:59:59 elisabeth_ Thank you all!
Jul 14 19:59:59 Cecilia thanks for the good conversation all!!
Jul 14 20:00:09 sprprtr aaahh, the film in the background
Jul 14 20:00:17 niccolo_ aaah Coronet films :)
Jul 14 20:00:22 sprprtr found it on archive.org
Jul 14 20:00:25 niccolo_ they were made her ein chciago
Jul 14 20:00:29 niccolo_ here
Jul 14 20:00:37 Ruth ah amazing @niccolo
Jul 14 20:00:38 * irini has quit ("Page closed")
Jul 14 20:00:40 niccolo_ god bless the internet archive
Jul 14 20:00:45 Ruth amen!
Jul 14 20:00:50 sprprtr it is an instructional film on how to learn cooperation
Jul 14 20:00:51 Cecilia yay for chicago!!
Jul 14 20:00:58 niccolo_ you should watch the "dating do's and don't s one too"
Jul 14 20:01:04 niccolo_ it's wacko
Jul 14 20:01:20 sprprtr Thank you all! Take care!
Jul 14 20:01:40 niccolo_ @sprprtr thank you for using their films, i was so
moved when i first cam eto this work
Jul 14 20:01:46 niccolo_ i like gasped lol
Jul 14 20:02:00 Anastasia and I have to say, I have new appreciation of IRC
chat now :-)
Jul 14 20:02:17 niccolo_ this and IRC got me sold on the first second lol
Jul 14 20:02:29 niccolo_ we really need tools that minimize distraction like
these
Jul 14 20:02:30 Cecilia haven't done IRC since 1998 LOL
Jul 14 20:02:34 Ruth : D
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Jul 14 20:04:00 niccolo_ ciao ciao from Chi-town!
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Jul 14 20:05:02 Camille night everyone
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Jul 14 20:05:14 UP_Projects Thank you to everyone for coming!
Jul 14 20:05:15 sprprtr night Camille
Jul 14 20:05:16 * ssd has quit (Ping timeout)
Jul 14 20:05:20 Ruth good night!
Jul 14 20:05:23 Cecilia night all!
Jul 14 20:05:26 Anastasia bye all!
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Jul 14 20:05:30 niccolo_ good night!
Jul 14 20:05:30 Ruth xxx
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Jul 14 20:06:40 sprprtr xxx
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Jul 14 20:40:14 ahadzi nighty night
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Jul 15 07:39:33 * Disconnected ()
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Jul 15 07:39:33 2020
Transcript
of
the
conversation
**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Aug 18 08:31:12 2020
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Aug 18 18:31:22 UPProjects Hi all, We will give it 5 more minutes before we begin
Aug 18 18:31:31 Mila can't wait
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Aug 18 18:33:49 Mgarrett hi there!
Aug 18 18:33:59 sprprtr Hi Ruth+Mgarrett!
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Aug 18 18:34:11 sprprtr Great you made it!
Aug 18 18:34:14 UPProjects Hi, we are just giving it a few more minutes before we begin
Aug 18 18:34:23 * Ruth (~cgiirc@gtjn57-152-61-82.range76-271.btcentralplus.com) has joined
Aug 18 18:34:26 Mgarrett Ruth's machine is playing up for some reason
Aug 18 18:34:35 Ruth hello!
Aug 18 18:34:38 Mgarrett aha!
Aug 18 18:34:48 sprprtr Hi! Welcome back!
Aug 18 18:35:03 * CGI810 (~cgiirc@rak298030-egpq93-2-1-efvg687.22-1.cable.virginm.net) has joined
Aug 18 18:35:55 UPProjects Welcome to Common Bond Society! Thank you all for joining us today.
Aug 18 18:35:55 UPProjects Just waiting for a critical mass of people before we start.
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Aug 18 18:36:31 sprprtr Hi all!
Aug 18 18:36:36 * UPProjects (~cgiirc@90.209.rr.znm) has joined
Aug 18 18:36:40 Mila hello :)
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Aug 18 18:36:47 oogabooga hiya!
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Aug 18 18:37:02 * UPProjects (~cgiirc@90.209.rr.znm) has joined
Aug 18 18:37:08 UPProjects We would like to welcome you all to this event 'In this Place of Safety:
The Digital Potential of the Public Sphere' hosted as part of Common Bond
Society by Larisa Blazic. This digital artwork has been commissioned by UP
Projects in response to the Covid-19 pandemic as part of our ongoing This
is Public Space digital commissioning strand.
Aug 18 18:37:13 CGI810 hello there
Aug 18 18:37:34 Mgarrett Hello CG1910
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Aug 18 18:37:57 UPProjects (~cgiirc@90.209.rr.znm) has joined
Aug 18 18:37:59 sprprtr just a sec
Aug 18 18:38:08 UPProjects This is Public Space considers the online realm as a site for public art
and creates space to investigate how we navigate between the online and physical
worlds, exploring the impact of digital media on our relationships with people
and places. The intention for this event aligns with our 'Learning to Learn'
approach, UP's ambition to embed participation throughout our learning and
public programme activities.
Aug 18 18:38:35 UPProjects Experimenting with a different methodology, this event merges the
traditional formats of the interview and panel discussion, with the
participatory nature of the Internet Relay Chats.
Aug 18 18:38:35 UPProjects We have structured the first part of the event in a way that creates the
conditions for you to learn the key concepts around the public sphere by
following a live in-depth interview with Zizi Papacharissi and panel with
two speakers (Caroline Sinders and Desiree Zeljka Miloshevic) who bring
different perspectives to the subject.
Aug 18 18:39:06 UPProjects The second part of the event will embrace the nature of IRC chatrooms,
inviting you to contribute to the discussion directly with the speakers.
Aug 18 18:39:06 UPProjects The event will be moderated by Siddharth Khajuria, whose role will shift
from that of interviewer, to that of the chair of the panel discussion,
and a group discussion moderator in the final part.
Aug 18 18:39:10 UPProjects This format may be new to many of you, but IRC chats are an old school
phenomenon that invite informal conversation, discussion and debate. We encourage
you to get involved, participate and share your opinions, viewpoints and questions.
Now we would like to introduce you to cultural producer and programmer Siddharth,
who will introduce our speakers and tonight's agenda.
Aug 18 18:39:10 UPProjects Siddharth is a senior producer at the Barbican Centre, and has spent more
than a dozen years working in the (often ill-defined) grey areas of large cultural
organisations (digital, public programming, civic!) For the last few years, he has
developed and managed a relatively new (started in early 2016) programme of experimental
installations, residencies and events which take place in and around the foyers of the
Barbican - a vast arts centre in the middle of London.
Aug 18 18:39:12 UPProjects Thank you for chairing tonight's event and Over to you Siddharth...
Aug 18 18:39:20 Siddharth Hey everyone.
Aug 18 18:39:28 Siddharth I'm chairing this evening!
Aug 18 18:39:43 Siddharth Sorry for the slightly late start - having a few internet issues...
Aug 18 18:39:55 * lakiluke (~cgiirc@eulm-76-63-84-456.static.as5557.net) has joined
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Aug 18 18:40:46 * Siddharth (~cgiirc@097.57.78.429.dyn.plus.net) has joined
Aug 18 18:41:24 Siddharth It's my first time in an IRC chatroom...
Aug 18 18:41:30 Siddharth Definitely learning as we go, so please bear with me...
Aug 18 18:41:34 Mila mine too
Aug 18 18:41:43 Siddharth From my chats with the team at UP, this feels like an experiment...
Aug 18 18:41:51 Siddharth Trying to take the depth of a talk / interview and mix it with...
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Aug 18 18:42:02 Siddharth a much more participatory convo involving everybody in here...
Aug 18 18:42:03 Mgarrett ;-)
Aug 18 18:42:07 Siddharth In terms of structure...
Aug 18 18:42:16 * CGI735 (~cgiirc@90.209.rr.znm) has joined
Aug 18 18:42:21 Siddharth In teh first half, I'm going to interview Zizi and bring Desiree and
Caroline into the convo...
Aug 18 18:42:37 Siddharth And in the second half we're just gonna open it up and follow the
threads in the room...
Aug 18 18:43:17 Siddharth I know that from UP's perspective, Larisa's commission is an exploration
of what public space means in the digital realm...
Aug 18 18:43:30 Siddharth And this event is about digging deeper into and exploring that strand of
research....
Aug 18 18:44:11 Siddharth Anyway... I'm not going to talk too much more, I feel like we should dive
in and see where things go,...
Aug 18 18:44:16 caro_line sounds good!
Aug 18 18:44:23 Siddharth Thanks!
Aug 18 18:44:38 black k
Aug 18 18:44:38 Siddharth So... we're going to start with 15-20 mins of me and Zizi having a
conversation...
Aug 18 18:44:51 Zizi Hi everyone!
Aug 18 18:45:09 Siddharth Zizi... before asking you lots of questions...
Aug 18 18:45:10 Mila hello
Aug 18 18:45:18 black hi
Aug 18 18:45:29 Siddharth Could you tell us a bit about who you are? And what you're working on
(or thinking about) at the minute?
Aug 18 18:46:07 Zizi human. aspiring transhuman astronaut. :-) former dj. but really::professor
Aug 18 18:46:15 Zizi ...
Aug 18 18:47:33 Zizi i study technology of all sorts, from the shoes you wear and why you might ...
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Aug 18 18:47:50 Zizi choose to wear them to the media and platforms you use...
Aug 18 18:48:26 Zizi for the past three years and pre covid I have been traveling the world..
Aug 18 18:48:39 Zizi and striking conversations with strangers. only condition:...
Aug 18 18:48:51 Zizi they be as different from me as possible. I ask them all the same 3 qs
Aug 18 18:48:55 Zizi what is democracy?
Aug 18 18:49:01 Zizi what does it mean to be a citizen?
Aug 18 18:49:07 Zizi what might make democracy better?
Aug 18 18:49:18 Zizi It's the most wonderful thing I have ever done.
Aug 18 18:49:30 Siddharth Can you think of the person whose answers most enchanted you?
Aug 18 18:49:35 Zizi and turned it into my 10th book, called After Democracy
Aug 18 18:49:51 Zizi my first participant, Louis, cab driver in Mexico City
Aug 18 18:50:08 Zizi interviewed in mad traffic and in extremely hot day . . .
Aug 18 18:50:14 * CGI099 (~cgiirc@b-30-45-193-257.hsd0.ma.comcast.net) has joined
Aug 18 18:50:30 Zizi gave me responses philosophers would be envious of.
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Aug 18 18:51:32 Siddharth I'm gonna suggest we buy your book to find out what they said...
Aug 18 18:51:38 Ruth zizi don't leave us hanging.... what did they say!?!?!
Aug 18 18:51:44 Ruth I can't wait to buy the book
Aug 18 18:51:46 Siddharth Ha!
Aug 18 18:51:50 Zizi one sec . . .
Aug 18 18:51:53 Siddharth Go on ...
Aug 18 18:52:07 Elisabeth suspence..
Aug 18 18:52:15 niccolo lol
Aug 18 18:52:49 sprprtr zizi will be back in a sec :-)
Aug 18 18:53:04 Zizi "corruption is the biggest problem" . . . "this is not democracy" ...
Aug 18 18:54:09 Zizi "These people feel more like kings. The faces are new, but the habits a
re old"
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Aug 18 18:54:28 Siddharth I love "the faces are new, but the habits are old"...
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Aug 18 18:54:35 Siddharth Phew, you returned...!
Aug 18 18:54:40 Siddharth OK, let's dive in...
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Aug 18 18:54:50 Siddharth We're here to talk about the "civic and political potential of
the digital realm"...
Aug 18 18:54:53 Siddharth A first question...
Aug 18 18:55:07 Siddharth Why should we care about the impact of the internet on the public sphere?
Aug 18 18:55:26 * Mgarrett (~cgiirc@gtjn57-152-61-82.range76-271.btcentralplus.com) has joined
Aug 18 18:55:28 Zizi because the internet helps us have conversations. Yet . . .
Aug 18 18:56:00 Zizi it has recently become a massive dumpster fire. And, this dumpster fire has
replaced our conversations. Our public sphere if you will. ..
Aug 18 18:56:21 Zizi And instead of putting out this dumpster fire, we are just sort of sitting
back and watching it, in awe.
Aug 18 18:56:50 Mila word.
Aug 18 18:56:54 Siddharth I wonder how you'd define a public sphere? In fact...
Aug 18 18:57:01 Siddharth How do I know I'm in one when I'm in one?
Aug 18 18:57:05 Zizi it is simple . . .
Aug 18 18:57:23 Zizi it is the sum of conversations we have about our collective well being. . .
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Aug 18 18:57:54 Zizi our personal, private, and public thoughts all woven into one long,
ongoing conversation we have as societies.
Aug 18 18:58:08 Zizi a public sphere supports that length . . .
Aug 18 18:58:13 Zizi curates the conversation . . .
Aug 18 18:58:23 Zizi directs or redirects it . .
Aug 18 18:58:48 Zizi ensures all parties have voices, ones loud enough as they need be. . .
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Aug 18 18:59:31 Zizi also ensures people have the patience to listen, when need be. and
to step aside and let others talk when the need arises. It is an open
space for conversation . . .
Aug 18 18:59:41 Zizi bad news is : you rarely find yourself in one for too long
Aug 18 18:59:58 Siddharth They sound like wonderful places, but...
Aug 18 19:00:09 Siddharth Are there any functioning public spheres on the internet?
Aug 18 19:00:24 Zizi Not really, nor have there every been. . .
Aug 18 19:00:33 Zizi a public sphere is more useful as metaphor . .
Aug 18 19:00:39 Zizi something we strive toward . . .
Aug 18 19:00:46 Zizi something we aspire to have . . .
Aug 18 19:00:52 Zizi an end goal
Aug 18 19:01:13 Zizi *ever been
Aug 18 19:01:39 Siddharth Having read your essay Virtual Sphere 2.0 recently...
Aug 18 19:01:52 Siddharth You speak a lot about the private sphere...
Aug 18 19:02:05 Siddharth Suggesting that much of our public action has retreated there...
Aug 18 19:02:19 Siddharth Can you say a bit more about what you mean?
Aug 18 19:02:29 Siddharth And what the consequences of this retreat are?
Aug 18 19:02:56 Zizi A private sphere is a space of thought and reflection. Of preparation
to enter the public sphere.
Aug 18 19:03:07 Zizi we do not retreat to the private sphere to be lonely . . .
Aug 18 19:03:32 Zizi we take time in our private spheres to become better participant in
public conversations . . .
Aug 18 19:03:37 Zizi to learn how to speak . . .
Aug 18 19:03:40 Zizi when to speak . . .
Aug 18 19:03:46 Zizi but importantly . . . when to listen
Aug 18 19:04:32 Siddharth Earlier, you talked about the internet having turned our conversations
into a dumpster fire ...
Aug 18 19:05:15 Siddharth Was it inevitable? What assumptions about us, and our behaviours...
Aug 18 19:05:30 Siddharth are embedded in the technologies we use? And by whom?
Aug 18 19:05:54 Zizi So true. The internet is what we make it. We enter the internet and as we
enter we bring along our conversational habits.
Aug 18 19:06:00 Zizi ...
Aug 18 19:06:24 Zizi the internet is not a magical space. It does not inherently create democracy
nor does it bring about toxicity.
Aug 18 19:06:31 Zizi it fosters expression and connection . . .
Aug 18 19:06:50 Zizi it connects democratically oriented people . . .and it also connects fascists.
Aug 18 19:07:00 Zizi But . . .
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Aug 18 19:07:04 Zizi think of it like this:
Aug 18 19:07:14 Zizi Technologies work like architecture . . .
Aug 18 19:07:22 Zizi They set up spaces ...
Aug 18 19:07:57 Zizi If you develop some affinity; a connection to that space, then it becomes a
place you hang out in ...
Aug 18 19:08:16 Zizi But not all places that you hang out in support the same activities . . .
Aug 18 19:08:35 Zizi Imagine a loud bar - you go there to meet friends and socialize openly ...
Aug 18 19:08:56 Zizi not to have a private and quiet conversation. Imagine a quiet restaurant -
you go there...
Aug 18 19:09:09 Zizi to have more private conversation. think of a movie theater - what is it
about the ...
Aug 18 19:09:29 Zizi design of that space that makes you immediately fall silent and pay attention
to the screen? ...
Aug 18 19:09:54 Zizi now imagine what would happen if you were to randomly transfer behaviors
across these spaces...
Aug 18 19:10:30 Zizi speak like you would in a bar while at the movies? behave like you do at
the movies while at a quiet dinner ? ...
Aug 18 19:10:36 Zizi it makes no sense right? ...
Aug 18 19:10:54 Zizi Yet that is what we do so often online. We choose to have conversations
in places that were ...
Aug 18 19:11:06 Zizi not designed to support them. And we end up creating dumpster fires
instead.
Aug 18 19:11:15 Siddharth Thanks Zizi...
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Aug 18 19:11:27 Siddharth This feels like the perfect point to bring Caroline Sinders in...
Aug 18 19:11:29 Siddharth But before I do...
Aug 18 19:11:40 Siddharth I know a few people have joined after we started...
Aug 18 19:11:46 Siddharth And we also had a bit of a glitchy start...
Aug 18 19:11:51 Siddharth So just to let you know where we're at...
Aug 18 19:12:05 Siddharth I'm about to chat with Caroline for 5-10 mins...
Aug 18 19:12:16 Siddharth And then the same with Desiree Miloshevic...
Aug 18 19:12:26 Siddharth And then open everything up...
Aug 18 19:12:30 Siddharth Hi Caroline!...
Aug 18 19:12:35 caro_line 2 hello!
Aug 18 19:12:46 Siddharth Can you tell us a bit about who you are and what you're thinking about...
Aug 18 19:12:55 Siddharth this week / this month / this year?
Aug 18 19:13:02 Siddharth (Don't have to answer all of those!)
Aug 18 19:13:12 caro_line i'm a critical designer, researcher, and artist, and I look at how
technology effects society through the lens of harm reductoin and product design
Aug 18 19:13:36 Siddharth I had a couple of questions, but before those...
Aug 18 19:13:50 Siddharth Are there any threads from Zizi's conversation which you want to pick up on?
Aug 18 19:13:57 caro_line but this means i look also at complex technology, andhow to make it human
readable
Aug 18 19:14:05 caro_line should we talk about architecture, sidd? :)
Aug 18 19:14:14 Siddharth Yes please!
Aug 18 19:14:15 Zizi great idea! :-)
Aug 18 19:14:43 Siddharth You often compare the internet to a city... Could you say a bit more about that?
Aug 18 19:15:08 caro_line in an essay comissioned by sidd, for those who are joining, i used architecture
as a metaphor and city planning to talk about the 'misdesign of socialnetworks.
meaning how social networks have grown so radically so much. if a city went from
50,000 to 5 million it would nee to be redesigned.
Aug 18 19:16:07 caro_line and in this construnct, as a metaphor, i think it really emphasizes the faults
of social networks. everything in a city is deisgned, even if it doesn't seem
designed (a tstreet is built, and when something isn't designed, the lack of
a design is a design, the oversight is still design). much like how a bug is
feature until you fix it.
Aug 18 19:16:54 caro_line and so we can use this as a great way to really unpack the issues with facebook,
for example, or twitter. what does a city of 20 0
Aug 18 19:17:17 caro_line 200 million look like? what would it need? how would you design for accessibility
or equity?
Aug 18 19:17:54 Siddharth How can we design in a less harmful way? I don't mean in theory...
Aug 18 19:17:57 caro_line this is where architecture is helpful as a framework for thikning through harm.
tho there's so much more would we could discuss- im' starting to look at libraaries,
which are palaces of the people :)
Aug 18 19:18:06 Siddharth Do you think it's possible to design a better internet?
Aug 18 19:18:22 caro_line we need to center the most vulnerbale, the msot marganilzed, teh most harmed.
we have to think about harm reduction.
Aug 18 19:18:36 caro_line i do! i really do. it just needs to shift away from the current structures and
paradigms.
Aug 18 19:18:59 Siddharth Can you see any examples where those shifts are beginning to happen?
Aug 18 19:19:03 caro_line a lot of this is scale. we assume change cannot happen bc of the curent scale or
capitalist structures
Aug 18 19:19:23 caro_line im excited about legislation in the EU. i think this is a good small step...
Aug 18 19:21:00 caro_line but im hopeful also right now with new tools popping up during covid, like make
space even if its open source
Aug 18 19:21:09 Siddharth Totally...
Aug 18 19:21:10 caro_line but tools with moderatoin and new kinds of UI for intimate discussions
Aug 18 19:21:31 Siddharth I have more questions I want to ask...
Aug 18 19:21:38 Siddharth But, am so mindful of time!...
Aug 18 19:21:51 Siddharth I wonder if this is a good point to bring Desiree in... Hi Desiree!
Aug 18 19:22:00 CGI071-desiree hi
Aug 18 19:22:11 CGI071-desiree Siddharth
Aug 18 19:22:21 Siddharth I feel like we could spend 30 mins talking about your professional background...
Aug 18 19:22:31 CGI071-desiree Let's not :)
Aug 18 19:22:40 Siddharth How would you introduce yourself in a sentence or two?
Aug 18 19:22:57 CGI071-desiree I am a bit of a policy adviser (wonk)
Aug 18 19:23:18 CGI071-desiree and i live between non-for-profits and corporate world and tech community
Aug 18 19:23:49 Siddharth Something I've been wanting to ask you...
Aug 18 19:23:57 CGI071-desiree I am a recovering Board Trustee of the Internet Society
Aug 18 19:24:04 Siddharth Ha!
Aug 18 19:24:18 Siddharth Caroline alluded to EU legislation...
Aug 18 19:24:28 Siddharth And different cultures clearly have different approaches to the same questions...
Aug 18 19:24:37 Siddharth I.e. data protection much more impt in EU than US...
Aug 18 19:24:45 Siddharth If you could make once change to the way we use or regulate the interent...
Aug 18 19:24:48 Siddharth what would it be?
Aug 18 19:25:10 CGI071-desiree Data protection is important and evoloution of the Privacy laws
Aug 18 19:25:28 CGI071-desiree that would certainly be one of the things I would put on my list
Aug 18 19:25:53 CGI071-desiree and am actively working on it in other organisations, like ShareFoundation
to protect data
Aug 18 19:26:01 CGI071-desiree of citizens.
Aug 18 19:26:15 CGI071-desiree In addition to that on my list you could find the Anti-Trust
Aug 18 19:26:18 * CGI576 (~cgiirc@90.209.rr.znm) has joined
Aug 18 19:26:35 CGI071-desiree issue. where some entities have too much of control, thiking of public shphere
Aug 18 19:26:41 Siddharth This feels like a wise list...
Aug 18 19:26:42 CGI071-desiree and online social media platforms
Aug 18 19:26:46 Siddharth In fact, on that very point...
Aug 18 19:26:58 Siddharth From your experience working for an org which profits from...
Aug 18 19:26:59 * Truus (~cgiirc@2.125.nk.iu) has joined
Aug 18 19:27:07 Siddharth the administrative control of domain names...
Aug 18 19:27:07 CGI071-desiree But also from a governance point of view, we need to keep users' needs in mind
Aug 18 19:27:16 CGI071-desiree for everything we do...
Aug 18 19:27:29 Siddharth (Sorry for interrupting!)
Aug 18 19:27:31 CGI071-desiree imagine you cannot even get or speak to anyone at Google if you loose your password
Aug 18 19:28:03 CGI071-desiree so the list is long... but definitely Privacy Laws Evolution is a must
Aug 18 19:28:12 CGI071-desiree also, when we speak about architecture
Aug 18 19:28:20 CGI071-desiree Caroline and Zizi have mentioned.
Aug 18 19:28:43 Siddharth (Btw, one last question from me after this and then opening up to everybody...)
Aug 18 19:28:56 CGI071-desiree in my experience - i believe we need to be usefully conservative on the norms and starnds
Aug 18 19:29:21 CGI071-desiree here i mean containment of ITU and the IETF. to go back to have users's intersts in mind
Aug 18 19:29:33 Siddharth For sure...
Aug 18 19:29:37 Siddharth One last Q from me...
Aug 18 19:29:44 Siddharth Given the many hats you've worn...
Aug 18 19:29:57 Siddharth Do you think it's possible for commercial interests and a public sphere...
Aug 18 19:30:01 Siddharth to co-exist?
Aug 18 19:30:11 * CGI038 (~cgiirc@213.205.gst.zov) has joined
Aug 18 19:30:25 Zizi excellent question
Aug 18 19:30:52 CGI071-desiree I believe it is possible to perhaps switch to cooperative online platforms
Aug 18 19:31:04 CGI071-desiree where you make a profit but you have stakeholders, not just shareholders
Aug 18 19:31:33 CGI071-desiree or it is possible today also, but with very careful design in the place
Aug 18 19:31:35 Mila how would that work
Aug 18 19:31:36 CGI071-desiree to protect rights
Aug 18 19:32:06 CGI071-desiree we have seen some public sphere networks like Mesh Network in NYC
Aug 18 19:32:12 CGI071-desiree also gwifi in Barcelona
Aug 18 19:32:34 CGI071-desiree and many other places, Slovenia, Germany, UK where communities provide
Aug 18 19:32:44 CGI071-desiree network access and platforms for communication but also trade
Aug 18 19:32:50 Siddharth Following Mila's lead...
Aug 18 19:32:55 Siddharth we've got 30 mins or so...
Aug 18 19:32:57 Siddharth Questions?
Aug 18 19:33:35 Mila I am interested in the architecture and redesign of the internet....we now that from
start ups who grow too fast its almost impossible to redesign after exponential growth..
Aug 18 19:33:49 Mila how would that work now with a network like facebook
Aug 18 19:34:01 Mila without people thinking its censorship
Aug 18 19:34:05 Mila ?
Aug 18 19:34:27 Siddharth Super question... Zizi?
Aug 18 19:34:30 Zizi There's two ways I would recommend:
Aug 18 19:34:47 Zizi 1)there are ways to curate conversation that do not equal censorship
Aug 18 19:34:59 Truus I like cooperative (online) platforms. the others use the capitalistic jargon of
'commercial, interest, profit, shareholders before stakeholders, etc.
Aug 18 19:35:20 Zizi 2)there are ways to educate people how to direct their attention, how to listen, how
to respond, how to avoid clickbait, how to use their attention as a pathway to agency
Aug 18 19:35:35 sprprtr Truus +1
Aug 18 19:35:40 Zizi your attention is your pathway to power . . . don't squander it on conversation that
is not worthy of it. . .
Aug 18 19:35:46 Zizi don't be cheap dates :-)
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Aug 18 19:36:12 Mila Right but if Facebook would have new rules weighing voices of marginalized people
for example that would not end well I assume
Aug 18 19:36:21 Mila Do we need neutral moderators
Aug 18 19:36:30 Mila in the new architecture
Aug 18 19:36:48 CGI576 Would it require a whole new platform ? What would that look like?
Aug 18 19:36:48 Zizi neutral moderators or content curators are the librarians of the future, in my mind
Aug 18 19:36:53 Zizi so absolutely yes
Aug 18 19:37:00 CGI576 who would need to design it?
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Aug 18 19:37:08 niccolo may I add a small thing on the side of Mila's and Zizi's exchange here?
Aug 18 19:37:09 Ruth no such thing as neutral!
Aug 18 19:37:09 Mila and how are they found? Do e vote them in
Aug 18 19:37:15 Siddharth Niccolo - go for it..
Aug 18 19:37:26 Zizi social scientists+artistis+computer scientists working together
Aug 18 19:37:44 CGI576 Ruth what would be your suggestion ?
Aug 18 19:37:45 niccolo i have been thinking about Siid's question for any many years and observing, I feel
like it might not be possible with what we have now
Aug 18 19:37:59 niccolo but there mught be ways to experiment with both language and economy
Aug 18 19:37:59 Zizi several companies, like Facebook, already employ social scientists and artists,
although they do weigh the decisions of coders (And actually shareholders), more heavily
Aug 18 19:38:24 niccolo one could be to experiment hypertexts that are not based on nouns or bjects....think if
there was one based on adverbs, for instance
Aug 18 19:38:33 Mila @Zizi and apparently they still can't control hate speech
Aug 18 19:38:34 Ruth polyphony - look to margins and the centre
Aug 18 19:38:35 niccolo and another one is find some ways to monetize our own data
Aug 18 19:38:50 Ruth multiple-contexts
Aug 18 19:39:08 Siddharth Caroline, I'm wondering what you think?...
Aug 18 19:39:15 CGI071-desiree The assymetry of power is too high for a bottom up solution or a single solution
Aug 18 19:39:19 Siddharth You've spent a long time observing the way the existing orgs behave
Aug 18 19:39:29 * UgoObi (~cgiirc@uli-25-197-128-067.socal.res.rr.com) has joined
Aug 18 19:39:45 Emma @zizi how do we go about "educating" people on how to direct their attention particularly
in relation to vulnerable people
Aug 18 19:40:05 caro_line sure! I work best with concrete examples-- but socialnetworks employee some extremely
talented folx, but I think mjaor issues are scale- how do you solve at scale? And when you
rely on AI, for example, right now during COVId but even before, AI models aren't great at
understanding nuance, especially hate speech.
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Aug 18 19:40:14 niccolo I don't think any endeavour should have in mind to overturn the current asymmetry, we can
only expoeriment, reflect and try.
Aug 18 19:40:33 caro_line i'd love to see more transparency ::ringing the civil society bell:: in these systems, for example.
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Aug 18 19:40:56 CGI735 What do you mean by transparency? Can you expand?
Aug 18 19:41:32 * UgoObi (~cgiirc@ujtm-28-26-807-54.west.biz.rr.com) has joined
Aug 18 19:41:33 Mila But back to the spheres....can we create different public spheres so that people know if they are
in a movie theater or innate a party
Aug 18 19:41:36 Zizi @Emma person by person. Word for word. with Patience. I do that for a living. Change is gradual.
Revolutions are long. :-)
Aug 18 19:41:43 caro_line sure! so like what is the exact system of looking at content, reviewing it, and making a
decision, and why. and what are they finding at scale? like, how much neo nazi content was
removed this year vsus maybe child porn? or copyrighted material?
Aug 18 19:41:50 caro_line imean transparency in this sense.
Aug 18 19:41:52 niccolo yes zizi
Aug 18 19:42:44 Emma :-)
Aug 18 19:42:48 Elisabeth @desiree, I would love to hear more about how the cooperative model can allow commercial
interests and the public sphere to coexist
Aug 18 19:43:37 * CGI708 (~cgiirc@b-30-45-193-257.hsd0.ma.comcast.net) has joined
Aug 18 19:44:00 Mgarrett I see the days of the homogeneous (please everyone type of) platform, as over. This standard
will remain, but there needs to be places for smaller groups, where patriarchal, dominant structures
which have centralized behaviour according to top-down agendas, no longer dominate the narrative
of people's cultural ambitions.
Aug 18 19:44:02 * CGI857 (~cgiirc@213.205.jyg.th) has joined
Aug 18 19:44:29 CGI735 Good point!
Aug 18 19:44:43 CGI857 hello
Aug 18 19:44:47 Siddharth A question for anyone, and it touches on the Q of whether we need a new platform...
Aug 18 19:44:51 Siddharth (hi CGI857)
Aug 18 19:44:54 sprprtr Hi
Aug 18 19:44:59 CGI071-desiree +Mgrarrett
Aug 18 19:45:01 Mila But is not one of the daring issues, that we as privat people mix up the understanding of private
space and public space in Social media
Aug 18 19:45:27 Siddharth how different would the internet look if it emerged from India, or from China?
Aug 18 19:45:34 CGI735 How can we recognise public and private online?
Aug 18 19:45:47 Mila Well we see East is going on at TikTok
Aug 18 19:45:48 Zizi @mgarrett so true. To return to Caroline's point of scale, we have outgrown our current model of
democracy, one that is thousands of years old, and one that was created for smaller societies.
Yet we keep trying to fit back into it, and it often feels like we are trying to squeeze into
a pair of jeans we wore as teenagers
Aug 18 19:45:57 CGI735 And if we can't is it important that it becomes more transparent ?
Aug 18 19:46:04 caro_line @zizi that is such an apt and poetic metaphor
Aug 18 19:46:10 Siddharth +1
Aug 18 19:46:30 Mgarrett Lol Zizi you said it well ;-)
Aug 18 19:46:41 CGI857 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_2lGkEU4Xs
Aug 18 19:46:43 Zizi thank you :-)
Aug 18 19:47:12 CGI810 how to keep this fitting room not becoming a filter bubble for "undesired history"?
Aug 18 19:47:28 Siddharth Does anybody want to pick up this question...
Aug 18 19:47:36 Mgarrett yes CGI857 that also says it well :-)
Aug 18 19:47:36 Siddharth How can we recognise the distinction between public and private online?
Aug 18 19:48:15 caro_line I don't know if we can.
Aug 18 19:48:31 Zizi I think we have to forget about that and other distinctions and learn how to exist in hybrid and
fluid mode. That way we will be better able to decide what we keep private and what we make
public on our own.
Aug 18 19:48:46 caro_line I think it's a range, and it differs across tools, and we use tools in a variety of ways
in relatioshhip to itimacy
Aug 18 19:48:53 CGI810 isn't this "we" very general?
Aug 18 19:48:55 UPProjects Do you think we need to be able to ? Is transparency important for a safer space ?
Aug 18 19:48:56 Mila nice said @zizzi
Aug 18 19:49:24 caro_line for example, people get broken up with over Twitter DMs, people are digitally mourned on facebook.
Aug 18 19:49:29 Zizi transparency is an important, but not a sufficient condition
Aug 18 19:49:31 CGI071-desiree Algorithmic Transparency is important
Aug 18 19:49:35 caro_line i think an issue is data privacy, tho. isnt it?
Aug 18 19:49:58 CGI071-desiree for a trusted or trustworthy place of public sphere. like covid open source app
Aug 18 19:50:04 Siddharth Desiree: can I pose CGI810's question to you?
Aug 18 19:50:15 Siddharth We've all been saying "We" a lot this evening (myself included)
Aug 18 19:50:22 caro_line we may be general, but a we is useful when discussing large scale social networks.
Aug 18 19:50:46 Mgarrett I see this issue as similar to land ownership, where surfs can only rent a temporary space & place,
but have no real say in its infrastrctures and intentions etc. With this being the context, then
transparency becomes more a thing about control & product.
Aug 18 19:51:04 CGI857 We can't, untill they grade it and put the public and private schools's on top of the
poor and women and blacks and all the other divisions
Aug 18 19:51:07 caro_line bc 'we' are under their policies, and even if 'we'use social networks differently,
how social networks edjucatie harassment cases, for example, or respond to misinformation,
affects all of 'our' communities regardless of who 'we' are
Aug 18 19:51:33 CGI857 true
Aug 18 19:51:48 Zizi using we signals that we are thinking about these things in a collective sense, as Caroline points out
Aug 18 19:52:02 Zizi in a connective and networked sense
Aug 18 19:52:10 Zizi that is all that is meant by that
Aug 18 19:52:11 CGI810 yes. however the effect on individual is different. why would "we" assume people want to connect with
each other in such a vibrant scale?
Aug 18 19:52:29 CGI857 or that they can afford to
Aug 18 19:52:54 caro_line perhaps its not our assumption but the assumption a platform makes, though.
Aug 18 19:53:13 Zizi no such assumption made by me. But an assumption often made by the logic of platforms
Aug 18 19:53:28 Mgarrett Well, isn't the platform a reflection of the owner's delberations?
Aug 18 19:53:30 caro_line a metaphor i like to use (yes, aanother one!) is the metaphor of we are in
Mark Zubkerberg's dream. THis is his dream for what a communication tool looks
like.
Aug 18 19:53:43 Zizi lol - true
Aug 18 19:53:51 Siddharth Whose dream is the room we're in this evening?
Aug 18 19:53:58 CGI071-desiree affordability or an individual not having a desire to connect is an elephant in the room
Aug 18 19:54:00 Mgarrett hehe...
Aug 18 19:54:02 CGI810 agree.. looking at his old public speech tells a lot
Aug 18 19:54:06 Zizi the artist's !
Aug 18 19:54:11 Siddharth Actually...
Aug 18 19:54:11 sprprtr :-)
Aug 18 19:54:14 Siddharth Larisa...
Aug 18 19:54:17 sprprtr yes?
Aug 18 19:54:19 Siddharth We're all in your houes!
Aug 18 19:54:21 Siddharth house*
Aug 18 19:54:22 caro_line an art project Ive been desperately wanting to explore and applying to residencies for-
is gathering different designers, artists and researchers and human rights folx into a panel
and ideating- what does a feminist social network look like. What is our collective not
facebook dream? what would it look like, what would it need?
Aug 18 19:54:28 Siddharth How have you felt observing tonight's conversation?
Aug 18 19:54:42 sprprtr well, we're in an IRC frankenstein
Aug 18 19:54:57 CGI197 Amazing. FREE to speak and think
Aug 18 19:55:01 CGI197 Inspired
Aug 18 19:55:03 Mila @caro-line....I am with you and want to facilitate
Aug 18 19:55:09 CGI857 meet me in the herbal garden Caro_line!!!
Aug 18 19:55:16 CGI576 heard!
Aug 18 19:55:23 CGI830 It reminded me my first experience at IRC
Aug 18 19:55:25 Zizi @Caroline so interesting @ sprprtr lol
Aug 18 19:55:41 Mgarrett Will this text convo be saved?
Aug 18 19:55:41 sprprtr but yes, the idea was to reuse IRC to discuss such topics that test our understanding
of technology and reflect
Aug 18 19:55:50 caro_line @cgi857 lets do it
Aug 18 19:56:06 Mila @caro-line----how can we get in touch?
Aug 18 19:56:16 Mgarrett I like its deconstructive nature...
Aug 18 19:56:25 sprprtr thanks
Aug 18 19:56:39 CGI830 thank you
Aug 18 19:56:40 CGI810 how do we keep up with your book? @zizi
Aug 18 19:56:57 CGI857 Yeah, Lara, how can we get in touch?
Aug 18 19:57:16 Zizi twitter @zizip for time being - not an endorsement of that platform btw :-)
Aug 18 19:57:17 sprprtr lab at v-ac-uum.xyz
Aug 18 19:57:22 caro_line twitter is often good for me! DMs are open @carolinesinders
Aug 18 19:57:26 CGI810 it'd be amazing if we could hear more from the panel
Aug 18 19:57:34 sprprtr twit @wheel_o_values
Aug 18 19:57:35 Siddharth For sure CGI810...
Aug 18 19:57:37 caro_line much like zizi, i don't endorse twitter, but i do use it ;)
Aug 18 19:57:40 Siddharth We've got a couple of mins left...
Aug 18 19:57:52 CGI576 This panel has been fantastic
Aug 18 19:58:04 Siddharth Caroline, then Desiree, then Zizi... what final thoughts would you like to leave in the room?
Aug 18 19:58:33 Siddharth (And, the same question for everyone in here TBH...
Aug 18 19:58:45 Siddharth I'll stick around for another 5-10 mins before saying bye!)
Aug 18 19:58:57 DUSTFISH when social distancing ends please host this as an event as I would love to hear you
all speak about this in person
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Aug 18 19:59:03 CGI071-desiree we desperately need public spehre and great moderators as currently we're all
in fliter bubbles either out of our own accord or by an algorithm
Aug 18 19:59:16 Mila @Dustfish me too
Aug 18 19:59:38 black missing bodily
Aug 18 19:59:41 Siddharth I think Caroline might be back in a minute...
Aug 18 19:59:43 CGI576 What I took from this is that we all have to change to change or impact the spaces we are using
Aug 18 19:59:47 CGI071-desiree i'd compary it to public vs private water utlity history and outcomes
Aug 18 19:59:54 DUSTFISH organisers!! please make it happen
Aug 18 19:59:58 CGI576 I also second DUSTFISH
Aug 18 20:00:15 Siddharth At UP Projects - can you make it ahppen?
Aug 18 20:00:19 CGI071-desiree where private operatsion mislead the public and frequently poisoned them... / California
Aug 18 20:00:34 CGI810 i quite enjoy this chatroom. it offers more for me personally then physical attendence
Aug 18 20:00:38 CGI857 Bloody hell, organisers make it happen!!! how do you think that looks without you coming out to see and help?
Aug 18 20:00:48 Zizi my thought that sums up my approach: technologies network us, but it is our stories that
connect us :: identify us : : but also potentially divide us
Aug 18 20:01:10 CGI857 Not divide, we just need to listen and speak
Aug 18 20:01:33 CGI857 I am currently working with squatters about to be evicted anytine
Aug 18 20:01:37 Mila Please make the script public ...I would love to read it over and over again
Aug 18 20:01:40 CGI071-desiree for public sphere to work on commercial platforms, I go back to anti-trust /
Aug 18 20:01:46 CGI071-desiree argument
Aug 18 20:01:58 Mgarrett Thanks everyone - that was interesting :-)
Aug 18 20:02:01 sprprtr Thank you all for joining in! Thanks to Siddharth+Zizi+caro_line+desiree + special thanks to UP Projects
Aug 18 20:02:18 Ruth Thanks everyone - so interesting!
Aug 18 20:02:25 DUSTFISH Thanks all! Loved it!
Aug 18 20:02:32 * Ruth has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC)
Aug 18 20:02:38 Mila Yes ...Great Host...and fantastic panel....thank you
Aug 18 20:02:38 CGI810 many thanks for this platform, time and the much of care taken into this session
Aug 18 20:02:38 * Mgarrett has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
Aug 18 20:02:39 CGI857 thank you
Aug 18 20:02:40 Siddharth A huge thank you to everyone!
Aug 18 20:02:44 * caro_line (~cgiirc@43-329-422-359.du.xdsl.is) has joined
Aug 18 20:02:45 sprprtr I have logged all - will be made available for sure
Aug 18 20:02:49 oogabooga Bye volks!
Aug 18 20:02:52 * CGI810 has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC)
Aug 18 20:02:53 * DUSTFISH has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC)
Aug 18 20:02:53 Siddharth Especially Caroline, Desiree, Zizi - such a pleasure to talk with you guys, and everybody else here!
Aug 18 20:02:58 Siddharth UP Projects...
Aug 18 20:03:02 Zizi thank you to everyone!!!
Aug 18 20:03:04 Siddharth Any final words from you?
Aug 18 20:03:05 caro_line thank you and sorry for the delay- firefox crashed onme
Aug 18 20:03:06 * CGI857 has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC)
Aug 18 20:03:28 UPProjects Thank you to Sidd, Zizi, Caroline and Desiree for your fantastic contributions this evening.
Aug 18 20:03:39 sprprtr Thanks again to all :-)
Aug 18 20:03:48 CGI071-desiree thanks everyone - enjoyed it a lot!
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Aug 18 20:03:55 Elisabeth Thank you all!
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Aug 18 20:04:07 * oogabooga has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC)
Aug 18 20:04:11 jack Amazing!
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Aug 18 20:04:38 Emma Thank you everyone for participating and we'll certainly try to arrange something IRL when the time comes and we can :-)
Aug 18 20:05:01 * Zizi (~cgiirc@loz-15-61-54-70.home.otenet.gr) has joined
Aug 18 20:05:02 UPProjects This event was part of This Is Public Space which is a programme that considers the online realm as a site for public
aart and creates space to investigate how we navigate between online and physical worlds exploring the im
Aug 18 20:05:31 UPProjects impact of our digital media on our relationships with people and places!
Aug 18 20:06:14 sprprtr thank you all! bye all!
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Aug 18 20:06:15 UPProjects We look forward to sharing more perspectives. Keep following UP Projects for more!
Aug 18 20:06:19 Siddharth Bye everyone. Thank you UP!
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Aug 18 20:06:32 CGI071-desiree Thank you UP
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**** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Aug 19 07:54:10 2020
of
the
conversation
Archive
On 18 August 2020 a curated conversation was
held in this chatroom around notions of
safety within the digital realm, uncertainty
and public space. The conversation was chaired
by cultural programmer and producer, Siddharth
Khajuria with participation from scholar, academic
and multi-published author Zizi Papacharissi,
critical designer and artist and former Mozilla
Fellow, Caroline Sinders, and former Trustee for
the Internet Society (ISOC) and International
Affairs and Policy Advisor at Afilias,
Desiree Zeljka Miloshevic.
Scroll down to experience the event via
video recording and transcript of the
discussion.
You can also log into this chatroom at
any time to have a conversation of your own.
Links+resources
- Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution by kniaz Petr Alekseevich Kropotkin on Project Gutenberg
- WTF is Mutual Aid? Zoom call with scott crow
- 9. Case Study: Mutual Aid Networks
- Covid-19 Mutual Aid UK
- Mutual aid (organization theory)
- From Mutual Aid to Dual Power: how do we build a new world in the shell of the old?
- Be About It: A History of Mutual Aid Has Prepared POC for This Moment
- Digital Solidarity Networks
- Sisters Uncut
- Solidarity Not Charity: Mutual Aid for Mobilization and Survival
- Solidarity Not Charity: Mutual Aid & How to Organize in the Age of Coronavirus
- Mutual Aid Is Rising - and It's Key to Our Survival
- #Covid Creatives Toolkit: Mutual aid for digital spaces
- Mutual Aid Network: an update
- COMMUNITY BUSINESS - COVID-19 MUTUAL AID
- Creating a hyperlocal infrastructure of care: COVID-19 Mutual Aid Groups
- British College of Mutual Aid
For more information about the project please click here.
Credits
Kropotkin botkin using RealTime Configurable IRC ChatBot
by Logan Lee.
All Kropotkin botkin quotes from 'Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution', retrieved from Project Gutenberg.
Mutual Aid, it's political practice IRC chat modified Kiwi IRC by
Dennis de Bel and hosted by Varia.
Solidarity not charity page uses an embebed IRC webchat qwebirc.
In this place of safety page uses an embeded IRC webchat CGI:IRC.
How To Get Cooperation,video found on Archive.org.
Special thanks to
Ruth Catlow
Cecilia Wee
Camille Barbagallo
Anastasia Kavada
Siddharth Khajuria
Zizi Papacharissi
Caroline Sinders
Desiree Miloshevic
Varia Centre for Everyday Technology for their help with Kiwi IRC webclient
James Stevens
Moira Lascelles
Lili-Maxx Hager
Elisabeth Del Prete
All work released under copyleft licenses
that mirror the licenses used in various
parts of this website.
Disclaimer
The opinions expressed in these messages
are the participants own and do not reflect
the views of Larisa Blazic, UP Projects,
or Arts Council England. Because community
standards vary and individuals sometimes
may upload content considered
inappropriate, you may be exposed to content
that you find offensive or objectionable.
Audiences are encouraged to bring any material
they deem offensive or objectionable to the
attention of UP Projects by emailing us at
info@upprojects.com identifying the specific
material they considered objectionable.
Common Bond Society by Larisa Blazic was commisioned by UP Projects for This is Public Space.